1
00:00:03,909 --> 00:00:01,270
and if any of you are troubled i

2
00:00:08,230 --> 00:00:03,919
encourage you to speak out

3
00:00:11,110 --> 00:00:08,240
testify i'm hoping you can pray for us

4
00:00:12,549 --> 00:00:11,120
um we're soldiers home on leave and my

5
00:00:14,789 --> 00:00:12,559
friends here are troubled

6
00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:14,799
cheever has a very bad back and a broken

7
00:00:17,830 --> 00:00:16,240
marriage and he wants to take his own

8
00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:17,840
life

9
00:00:21,990 --> 00:00:20,160
and tk's wounded in the private parts

10
00:00:23,750 --> 00:00:22,000
which is why he's lying to his fiance

11
00:00:25,589 --> 00:00:23,760
about going to horse

12
00:00:28,150 --> 00:00:25,599
that's a scene from the movie the lucky

13
00:00:31,509 --> 00:00:28,160
ones with rachel mcadams where she's

14
00:00:34,150 --> 00:00:31,519
seeking a spiritual healing which is a

15
00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:34,160
topic we touch on with today's guest the

16
00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:36,640
extraordinarily excellent dr alexander

17
00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:37,920
morita almida

18
00:00:44,709 --> 00:00:41,520
who is a world-class brazilian doctor

19
00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:44,719
and expert on spirituality and health

20
00:00:48,069 --> 00:00:46,960
he's an md university professor

21
00:00:50,389 --> 00:00:48,079
researcher

22
00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:50,399
and one of the big takeaway messages

23
00:00:53,110 --> 00:00:51,280
that he has

24
00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:53,120
is that even though we're conditioned to

25
00:00:57,670 --> 00:00:55,920
immediately apply the crazy tag to any

26
00:00:58,229 --> 00:00:57,680
connection between spirituality and

27
00:01:00,069 --> 00:00:58,239
health

28
00:01:01,590 --> 00:01:00,079
the actual science leads us to the

29
00:01:04,710 --> 00:01:01,600
verified fact that there

30
00:01:05,429 --> 00:01:04,720
is a connection here's a clip sometimes

31
00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:05,439
of course

32
00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:09,040
there is the dark side of spirituality

33
00:01:14,870 --> 00:01:12,880
but it's not the average the on average

34
00:01:16,469 --> 00:01:14,880
the use of religious spirituality is

35
00:01:19,910 --> 00:01:16,479
positive and have

36
00:01:20,950 --> 00:01:19,920
even impact on mortality just one

37
00:01:24,310 --> 00:01:20,960
example

38
00:01:25,670 --> 00:01:24,320
professor tyler van der wielz is a chair

39
00:01:28,070 --> 00:01:25,680
of public health

40
00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:28,080
at harvard university is one of the best

41
00:01:34,550 --> 00:01:30,640
statisticians in the world nowadays

42
00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:34,560
he has several studies following up

43
00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:38,640
70 000 80 000 people for 10

44
00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:41,920
15 years and showing for example

45
00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:44,079
that the people who attended a religious

46
00:01:48,389 --> 00:01:45,360
service at least

47
00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:48,399
once a week died 50

48
00:01:55,670 --> 00:01:52,000
less in a 14 years follow-up

49
00:01:59,109 --> 00:01:55,680
or died six times less from suicide

50
00:02:02,149 --> 00:01:59,119
in this also 14 years follow-up

51
00:02:04,230 --> 00:02:02,159
so that is a a strong impact

52
00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:04,240
but now i think the current challenge is

53
00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:05,200
first

54
00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:09,360
to disseminate this information to

55
00:02:12,869 --> 00:02:12,160
general population and also in the

56
00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:12,879
training

57
00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:15,280
of physicians of nurses and

58
00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:17,280
psychologists because sometimes

59
00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:19,840
this knowledge has not been translated

60
00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:20,480
yet

61
00:02:24,309 --> 00:02:23,040
in actual clinical training of

62
00:02:29,030 --> 00:02:24,319
professionals

63
00:02:32,070 --> 00:02:29,040
challenge i think perhaps is more even

64
00:02:34,550 --> 00:02:32,080
of interest to skeptical audience

65
00:02:36,229 --> 00:02:34,560
is uh okay but what is the meaning of

66
00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:36,239
spirituality

67
00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:40,640
can understand okay

68
00:02:44,949 --> 00:02:42,480
yeah really church attendance can be

69
00:02:45,270 --> 00:02:44,959
related to social support can be related

70
00:02:48,869 --> 00:02:45,280
to

71
00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:48,879
beliefs but does actually have

72
00:02:53,110 --> 00:02:51,840
an any ontological reality this is

73
00:02:54,949 --> 00:02:53,120
spirituality

74
00:02:56,229 --> 00:02:54,959
is there something actually beyond

75
00:02:58,070 --> 00:02:56,239
matter so

76
00:02:59,589 --> 00:02:58,080
i think this studies for example of

77
00:03:01,910 --> 00:02:59,599
spiritual experiences

78
00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:01,920
and try to understand the ultimate

79
00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:04,080
source of this spiritual experiences

80
00:03:07,430 --> 00:03:06,080
and the meaning of this experience to

81
00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:07,440
human nature

82
00:03:10,869 --> 00:03:09,760
i think is one of the most interesting

83
00:03:14,710 --> 00:03:10,879
challenges

84
00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:16,869
so this is obviously a very complicated

85
00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:19,120
issue so it's good to know that it's

86
00:03:23,509 --> 00:03:21,200
being tackled by somebody who can

87
00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:23,519
handle the complexity i mean this is

88
00:03:26,070 --> 00:03:25,120
someone who actually earlier in his

89
00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:26,080
career

90
00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:28,799
researched john of god you know the now

91
00:03:32,309 --> 00:03:29,680
exposed sex

92
00:03:34,229 --> 00:03:32,319
trafficker rapist cult leader murderer

93
00:03:35,589 --> 00:03:34,239
who was friends with oprah winfrey and

94
00:03:37,670 --> 00:03:35,599
bill clinton until

95
00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:37,680
an investigative reporter who later was

96
00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:38,640
suicided

97
00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:40,560
revealed that the whole thing was about

98
00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:42,720
sex traffic and other evils that we can

99
00:03:45,750 --> 00:03:44,640
only imagine and that's something we get

100
00:03:47,990 --> 00:03:45,760
into a little bit in this

101
00:03:50,229 --> 00:03:48,000
interview but imagine this worst of the

102
00:03:52,789 --> 00:03:50,239
worst john of god figure

103
00:03:54,630 --> 00:03:52,799
you know when you really go study them

104
00:03:57,509 --> 00:03:54,640
you come back with reports of

105
00:03:59,030 --> 00:03:57,519
people being healed so some people are

106
00:04:01,270 --> 00:03:59,040
being incredibly abused

107
00:04:02,949 --> 00:04:01,280
but some people are being healed you

108
00:04:05,670 --> 00:04:02,959
want to talk about complexity

109
00:04:08,309 --> 00:04:05,680
there you go this is important research

110
00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:08,319
important forward-looking science

111
00:04:12,390 --> 00:04:10,480
and i loved every minute of it hope you

112
00:04:14,229 --> 00:04:12,400
enjoy it as well

113
00:04:16,550 --> 00:04:14,239
welcome to skeptico where we explore

114
00:04:18,789 --> 00:04:16,560
controversial science and spirituality

115
00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:18,799
with leading researchers thinkers and

116
00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:21,440
their critics i'm your host alex sacaris

117
00:04:25,670 --> 00:04:24,000
and today we welcome dr alexander

118
00:04:29,030 --> 00:04:25,680
moretta this folks

119
00:04:31,749 --> 00:04:29,040
this ought to be a good one

120
00:04:33,909 --> 00:04:31,759
dr al maida is a recognized

121
00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:33,919
around-the-world world recognized leader

122
00:04:37,670 --> 00:04:34,560
in

123
00:04:39,830 --> 00:04:37,680
spirituality and health research tons of

124
00:04:41,189 --> 00:04:39,840
academic clinical experience in

125
00:04:42,950 --> 00:04:41,199
psychiatry

126
00:04:44,550 --> 00:04:42,960
psychotherapy as well as scientific

127
00:04:47,590 --> 00:04:44,560
research md

128
00:04:50,469 --> 00:04:47,600
phd in brazil post doctoral and

129
00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:50,479
duke writes books with dean rayden

130
00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:51,520
marilyn schlitz

131
00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:54,720
allen wallace andrew newberg and i only

132
00:04:57,909 --> 00:04:56,320
throw those names out there because

133
00:04:59,430 --> 00:04:57,919
those might be ones that you've

134
00:05:01,189 --> 00:04:59,440
heard on this show because we've

135
00:05:04,469 --> 00:05:01,199
interviewed all those folks

136
00:05:07,189 --> 00:05:04,479
so this is really really

137
00:05:07,990 --> 00:05:07,199
a very prominent and important figure in

138
00:05:11,550 --> 00:05:08,000
this field

139
00:05:14,710 --> 00:05:11,560
of the intersection of science

140
00:05:17,110 --> 00:05:14,720
spirituality and medicine and it's

141
00:05:18,950 --> 00:05:17,120
really a terrific opportunity for us to

142
00:05:20,870 --> 00:05:18,960
have him join us today

143
00:05:23,189 --> 00:05:20,880
dr amanda thank you very much for being

144
00:05:25,350 --> 00:05:23,199
on skeptico

145
00:05:26,390 --> 00:05:25,360
alex thank you very much it's a great

146
00:05:29,430 --> 00:05:26,400
pleasure being here

147
00:05:30,950 --> 00:05:29,440
talking to you and to the audience of

148
00:05:33,590 --> 00:05:30,960
skeptical and congratulations for the

149
00:05:36,629 --> 00:05:33,600
work that you have done at skeptical

150
00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:36,639
well that's very nice of you to say but

151
00:05:39,590 --> 00:05:37,680
let's uh

152
00:05:41,029 --> 00:05:39,600
let's talk about your background a

153
00:05:44,870 --> 00:05:41,039
little bit you're

154
00:05:45,749 --> 00:05:44,880
uh a brazilian and i think from the

155
00:05:49,029 --> 00:05:45,759
beginning from

156
00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:49,039
jump street your bio sort of brings

157
00:05:54,870 --> 00:05:51,280
forward the kind of

158
00:05:57,350 --> 00:05:54,880
more full-flavored understanding that we

159
00:05:57,830 --> 00:05:57,360
might have of how these things do merge

160
00:06:01,430 --> 00:05:57,840
together

161
00:06:04,790 --> 00:06:01,440
how spirituality and rational scientific

162
00:06:06,870 --> 00:06:04,800
inquiry your bio is is that story in a

163
00:06:09,909 --> 00:06:06,880
lot of ways isn't it

164
00:06:13,189 --> 00:06:09,919
yeah i during my

165
00:06:15,749 --> 00:06:13,199
when i was a medical student i was

166
00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:15,759
since the beginning interested in

167
00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:17,039
clinical practicing

168
00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:19,520
seeing patients but the same time i was

169
00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:20,080
interested

170
00:06:26,870 --> 00:06:23,440
in scientific research and specifically

171
00:06:30,629 --> 00:06:26,880
during my i think it's second or third

172
00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:30,639
year of medical school i got to know

173
00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:34,880
about psychic surgeries and i've read

174
00:06:41,909 --> 00:06:38,880
uh some articles in newspapers and

175
00:06:43,909 --> 00:06:41,919
magazines uh here in brazil about

176
00:06:46,070 --> 00:06:43,919
this stuff about all the controversy

177
00:06:49,670 --> 00:06:46,080
about if they are fraud or not

178
00:06:53,350 --> 00:06:49,680
then i thought oh why instead of just

179
00:06:56,550 --> 00:06:53,360
uh making uh suppositions about

180
00:06:58,710 --> 00:06:56,560
this stuff why don't anyone go there and

181
00:07:01,990 --> 00:06:58,720
study and analyze what is happening

182
00:07:05,029 --> 00:07:02,000
so it was exactly what we did we went

183
00:07:06,710 --> 00:07:05,039
there we collected the material the

184
00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:06,720
tissues that were

185
00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:09,360
allegedly removed from patients and we

186
00:07:14,469 --> 00:07:11,199
brought to the universe to

187
00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:14,479
to submit to analysis so this is exactly

188
00:07:19,029 --> 00:07:16,400
the start of our

189
00:07:19,990 --> 00:07:19,039
academic interest in this field

190
00:07:22,469 --> 00:07:20,000
fantastic

191
00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:22,479
that's the next level stuff i really

192
00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:24,880
want to get in there the the

193
00:07:28,710 --> 00:07:27,840
john of god i mean this puts a whole

194
00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:28,720
different

195
00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:30,560
flavor and we can take it in so many

196
00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:32,560
different directions it's so much deeper

197
00:07:36,150 --> 00:07:34,720
i think we have to start maybe even with

198
00:07:37,990 --> 00:07:36,160
just kind of the baseline

199
00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:38,000
interest but what i really wanted to

200
00:07:43,589 --> 00:07:39,520
refer back to is

201
00:07:46,469 --> 00:07:43,599
even uh your upbringing as uh

202
00:07:47,589 --> 00:07:46,479
as a child inside of a culture that has

203
00:07:50,710 --> 00:07:47,599
a very

204
00:07:52,309 --> 00:07:50,720
rich and diverse spiritual and

205
00:07:54,390 --> 00:07:52,319
spiritualist

206
00:07:56,230 --> 00:07:54,400
kind of understanding of the world tell

207
00:07:57,909 --> 00:07:56,240
us about that because i think

208
00:07:59,909 --> 00:07:57,919
we you know we hear about that but then

209
00:08:01,990 --> 00:07:59,919
we don't really process it

210
00:08:04,070 --> 00:08:02,000
as uh you know americans in the united

211
00:08:05,189 --> 00:08:04,080
states what that really means can you

212
00:08:07,110 --> 00:08:05,199
add some

213
00:08:09,189 --> 00:08:07,120
depth to that what that meant growing up

214
00:08:12,869 --> 00:08:09,199
in that culture

215
00:08:15,909 --> 00:08:12,879
okay yeah here in brazil officially

216
00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:15,919
catholicism is the most prevalent uh

217
00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:18,560
religion in brazil but in addition to

218
00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:20,720
that we have of course several

219
00:08:23,990 --> 00:08:22,879
different lines of protestantism

220
00:08:26,469 --> 00:08:24,000
evangelicals

221
00:08:28,230 --> 00:08:26,479
but also we have spiritism we have

222
00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:28,240
african brazilian religions

223
00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:30,160
and several other different traditions

224
00:08:34,949 --> 00:08:32,080
and in brazil is very frequent

225
00:08:36,709 --> 00:08:34,959
people mixing different faiths different

226
00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:36,719
religions different practices for

227
00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:37,440
example

228
00:08:41,110 --> 00:08:40,240
there is a national survey showing that

229
00:08:42,949 --> 00:08:41,120
in brazil

230
00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:42,959
half of catholics believe in

231
00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:44,720
reincarnation in brazil

232
00:08:48,389 --> 00:08:47,440
so this is this and in my family

233
00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:48,399
background

234
00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:51,600
uh was basically in catholicism and

235
00:08:55,670 --> 00:08:53,760
spiritism so there was a mix of

236
00:08:58,230 --> 00:08:55,680
catholicism and spiritism

237
00:09:00,310 --> 00:08:58,240
and also something of african brazilian

238
00:09:03,030 --> 00:09:00,320
religions like umbanda

239
00:09:04,389 --> 00:09:03,040
and also something of protestantism so

240
00:09:08,310 --> 00:09:04,399
it was exactly

241
00:09:11,110 --> 00:09:08,320
in this melting pot i when i was

242
00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:11,120
a child i attended some mediumistic

243
00:09:14,870 --> 00:09:12,160
sciences

244
00:09:15,670 --> 00:09:14,880
both in african brazilian religions and

245
00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:15,680
also in

246
00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:19,120
espiritism and also uh there is a strong

247
00:09:22,870 --> 00:09:20,000
emphasis

248
00:09:25,430 --> 00:09:22,880
in hispanism in putting together science

249
00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:25,440
and spirituality and trying to

250
00:09:29,829 --> 00:09:28,000
there is uh emphasis in trying to have a

251
00:09:30,389 --> 00:09:29,839
rational faith or some things like that

252
00:09:36,310 --> 00:09:30,399
so

253
00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:36,320
touched me the idea in trying to

254
00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:39,200
understand in a rational scientific

255
00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:42,800
view the spirituality so yeah i think

256
00:09:48,949 --> 00:09:46,640
everything uh of of this

257
00:09:50,150 --> 00:09:48,959
uh different perspectives and

258
00:09:53,269 --> 00:09:50,160
environment to

259
00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:53,279
mode myself fantastic so then

260
00:09:58,389 --> 00:09:56,560
when you do have this sense of this

261
00:09:59,910 --> 00:09:58,399
rational scientific and you're obviously

262
00:10:02,550 --> 00:09:59,920
super intelligent so you want to

263
00:10:03,269 --> 00:10:02,560
explore that part of it what is that

264
00:10:05,509 --> 00:10:03,279
like

265
00:10:07,269 --> 00:10:05,519
for you personally and also what do you

266
00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:07,279
feel because you are

267
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:09,279
work with so many people internationally

268
00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:11,680
other researchers and scholars

269
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:13,680
do you think that transition that

270
00:10:18,710 --> 00:10:16,320
blending that you were able to do

271
00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:18,720
was easier for you or was it just as

272
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:20,640
difficult as it is for so many people in

273
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:22,240
the west to then

274
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:24,800
feel like they're at this crossroads

275
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:26,640
where they either have to leave behind

276
00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:29,040
all these experiences that they feel are

277
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:29,839
genuine

278
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:32,240
but yet in order to enter into this

279
00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:34,079
scientific rational world they have to

280
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:34,640
leave those

281
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:37,120
behind was that at all a struggle for

282
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:38,959
you or just kind of an easy transition

283
00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:42,000
okay well uh

284
00:10:45,509 --> 00:10:43,680
well first of all it's interesting to

285
00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:45,519
say that i myself

286
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:48,720
do not have this anomalous experience i

287
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:50,720
don't see anything i don't hear anything

288
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:51,680
i don't have

289
00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:54,320
this experience but i'm deeply

290
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:56,560
interested in this experience and i know

291
00:11:00,230 --> 00:10:57,920
many people who have

292
00:11:01,269 --> 00:11:00,240
this sorts of experience for this is one

293
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:01,279
point the second

294
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:03,760
point now it has been more than 25 years

295
00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:05,440
that i started doing this kind of

296
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:08,240
research in the beginning i thought it

297
00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:08,720
was

298
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:11,839
it would be much harder than it

299
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,040
actually was yes i

300
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:17,680
even here i've heard a lot oh you faced

301
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,440
opposition you should

302
00:11:22,630 --> 00:11:21,760
think about a different career or things

303
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:22,640
like that

304
00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:25,600
but actually also since the beginning i

305
00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:26,160
was

306
00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:28,640
very very committed to a very rigorous

307
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:29,600
investigation

308
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:32,800
i i've always been very very concerned

309
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,120
about methodological rigor

310
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:38,160
and and also having a philosophical and

311
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:40,720
historical understanding of science

312
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:44,399
and what actually makes science

313
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:47,440
and what are the other stuff that are

314
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:49,040
not necessarily science but some

315
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:51,120
ideological commitments or historical

316
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:52,880
perspectives and things like that

317
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:56,959
so but uh the bottom line is of course

318
00:12:00,710 --> 00:12:00,000
we had to to struggle with several

319
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:00,720
challenges

320
00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:03,279
but actually it was much easier than i

321
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:04,480
had thought

322
00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:07,680
and also it was very interesting that

323
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,920
for example here in brazil i was

324
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,079
surprised by many

325
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:15,120
key figures in scientific community that

326
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:18,240
despite not being openly interested

327
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:21,200
in religion and spirituality when they

328
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:22,079
found out

329
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,639
that find out that someone like me was

330
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,000
interested in pursuing

331
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:28,399
a research on that i received a lot of

332
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:29,839
support sometimes

333
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:33,120
behind the scenes sometimes more

334
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:36,480
openly but also i'm very very

335
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,639
grateful to many uh leading researchers

336
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:42,079
worldwide that were

337
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:44,560
very very kind and very very supportive

338
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:47,040
to me so it's amazing how

339
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,920
leading people in this field in many

340
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:51,120
different countries

341
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:54,160
have been supportive to myself and to my

342
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:56,880
career building you that's uh that's

343
00:13:00,150 --> 00:12:58,639
super interesting to me because i've

344
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:00,160
interviewed so many folks

345
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:04,079
that i i do believe that your experience

346
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:08,079
is maybe if not unique is unique to

347
00:13:12,389 --> 00:13:10,160
your culture i think brazil is more

348
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,399
forward thinking more more flexible

349
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:15,120
more free to kind of move through those

350
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,600
things

351
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:17,200
i've talked to so many researchers in

352
00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:19,360
the united states and in the uk who

353
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:21,279
it was much much more difficult and

354
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:22,720
there was much more kind of

355
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:26,399
hostility so great and that's great and

356
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:27,200
it's good to know

357
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:29,680
that that's possible but i did want to

358
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:30,880
give folks

359
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,079
more of a kind of concrete sense of

360
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:36,079
the work that you do so i've pulled up

361
00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:37,839
your amazon page

362
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:41,120
on the screen and then in particular

363
00:13:45,189 --> 00:13:42,320
here's a book

364
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:45,199
spiritism and mental health and i just

365
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:46,639
wanted to

366
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:49,360
run through the table of contents of

367
00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:50,480
this book

368
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:51,680
because i think it'll help people

369
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,079
understand what i meant in terms of

370
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:56,720
where you kind of fit in the world so

371
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:57,199
this

372
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:00,320
is compiled and edited by dr

373
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:02,800
emma bragdon and i'm not familiar with

374
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,399
her but she looks like she is

375
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:06,720
a pretty impressive person but she

376
00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:07,920
called upon you to write

377
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:10,320
chapters a brief overview of the

378
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,040
philosophy

379
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,959
and development of spiritism

380
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:14,320
methodologies

381
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:17,360
the spiritus view of mental disorders

382
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:18,720
which we're going to talk about in a

383
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:20,720
minute fascinating

384
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:22,399
the relationship of mediumship and

385
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:23,920
mental disorders

386
00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:26,160
another topic that you're interested in

387
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:27,600
you didn't actually write that chapter

388
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:29,040
or i'm not sure if you contributed

389
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,560
anyway i just want people to know you

390
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:32,800
know uh then there's like uh where's

391
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:35,920
alan wallace who's been

392
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:39,120
on the show you know uh a science of

393
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:40,480
understanding the mind

394
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:43,199
alan wallace spiritual attachment and

395
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,160
health

396
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:47,040
and then we have dean rayden and marilyn

397
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,320
schlitz compassionate

398
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:50,639
intention is a therapeutic intervention

399
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:51,839
by partners of

400
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,399
cancer patients and again i'm not going

401
00:14:58,870 --> 00:14:56,560
to go into each one of those topics

402
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:58,880
i just want people to get a sense as we

403
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:00,880
kind of jump into your work

404
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:05,040
of where you sit and that there is this

405
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:08,320
body of work that's going on and you are

406
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,600
right in the middle and a part of it of

407
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,920
serious scientific research that's

408
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:14,959
exploring this

409
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:18,880
intersection of science and spirituality

410
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,000
so do you want to maybe comment on that

411
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:24,720
in terms of just the landscape that

412
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,120
we're

413
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:27,600
in and how it's changed in the years

414
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:29,040
that you've been at this and where you

415
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:29,759
see it

416
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:32,959
at currently okay i think the

417
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:35,920
first major step in the field of

418
00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:38,000
spirituality and health spirituality and

419
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:38,959
science

420
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:43,199
uh starting the 1980s 1990s

421
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:46,079
uh with some alters like herd carnegie

422
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,320
and

423
00:15:50,949 --> 00:15:48,880
others who start performing large

424
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:50,959
epidermological studies

425
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:53,360
showing that spirituality and

426
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:55,120
religiosity

427
00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:58,480
is still very prevalent nowadays and

428
00:16:04,069 --> 00:15:59,920
that they actually have

429
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:04,079
impact a significant impact on health

430
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,720
and i think this is nowadays i

431
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:08,639
established knowledge

432
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:12,160
so uh i think you is basically

433
00:16:18,069 --> 00:16:16,079
commonology in medicine and psychology

434
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:18,079
for example international psychiatric

435
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:20,240
associations like the word psychiatric

436
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:22,320
association the american psychiatric the

437
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:23,839
indian south american

438
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:26,880
south american south african brazilian

439
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:30,000
in germany united kingdom all these

440
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:31,920
psychiatric associations for example

441
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:34,160
have sections on spirituality and

442
00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:35,600
psychiatry so

443
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:38,240
it's nowadays acknowledge that

444
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,279
spiritualities

445
00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:42,079
is not easy still and probably will keep

446
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:42,720
being

447
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:49,759
and that has a lot of impact on health

448
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,120
let me just interject with a couple of

449
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,959
points that i learned from

450
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:54,560
a couple of your presentations that i

451
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:56,959
found because what you said

452
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:58,639
you're saying in a very matter-of-fact

453
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:00,320
way but

454
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:02,959
it does push against i think some public

455
00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:04,959
perceptions or misconceptions that

456
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:05,919
people have

457
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:08,959
one is that religion and religiosity

458
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:11,679
is still very very strong across the

459
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:12,240
world

460
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:14,160
and if anything it's increasing the

461
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,839
number of people who identify

462
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:18,240
as being part of some religious group is

463
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:19,280
very high

464
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,079
80 percent range and as you point out

465
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:24,240
that trend is trending up

466
00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:25,839
because many times especially in the

467
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,520
united states we get the

468
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:29,520
impression that it's no it's trending

469
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:31,520
down and many people are less religious

470
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:32,559
and less spiritual

471
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,480
and that's not really what the data says

472
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,320
but the other thing you're pointing to

473
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:38,559
that again it sounds controversial but

474
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:40,160
when you just look at it like you're

475
00:17:43,110 --> 00:17:41,600
talking about from a super high level

476
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:43,120
and you go survey people

477
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:46,400
and you correlate their religiosity

478
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:48,559
with their overall health there's a

479
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:49,840
correlation there

480
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:51,840
that you're alluding to that religious

481
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:53,440
people even if we

482
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:56,559
don't try and attach an explanation to

483
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:57,039
it

484
00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:59,360
seem to be more healthy and they seem to

485
00:18:01,990 --> 00:18:00,160
understand

486
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:02,000
that there is some relationship between

487
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:03,280
their spirituality

488
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:06,320
and their health so am i correct in

489
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,520
in that's what i pull from your stuff so

490
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:11,520
is that correct

491
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,400
yeah yeah exactly first at the pew

492
00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:16,320
research center pure research center

493
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:20,480
is probably the best uh think tank in

494
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:23,280
in discussing about beliefs and behavior

495
00:18:27,870 --> 00:18:24,480
around the globe

496
00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:27,880
so they have a international survey for

497
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,360
2015

498
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:31,840
showing that 84 of the world's

499
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:32,960
population have

500
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:36,000
a religious affiliation and even among

501
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:38,320
the 16 percent of the world population

502
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:39,120
that

503
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:42,080
do not having a religious affiliation

504
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:42,640
they

505
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:45,679
usually have some sort of spirituality

506
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:46,720
believe in god

507
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:50,799
god spirits whatever and the trends

508
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:54,480
are that there will be a decrease

509
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,880
in people in non-affiliated people in

510
00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:58,160
the next decades

511
00:19:01,510 --> 00:19:00,799
so this is uh well established data

512
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:01,520
nowadays

513
00:19:05,150 --> 00:19:04,240
the point is usually this sort of data

514
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:05,160
is not

515
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,799
widespread through global media and

516
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,000
things like that this is one

517
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:12,320
point the second point is regarding

518
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:13,600
exactly the

519
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,240
impact of spirituality on health

520
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:18,720
sometimes of course there is the dark

521
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:19,600
side

522
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:23,039
of spirituality it also can have

523
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:25,760
deleterious effects but it's not the

524
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:26,720
average

525
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:31,520
spirituality is positive

526
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:35,039
and have even impact on mortality

527
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,919
just one example professor tyler van der

528
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:38,480
wielz

529
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:41,919
he's a chair of public health at harvard

530
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:43,440
university is one of the

531
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,320
best statisticians in the world nowadays

532
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:48,720
he has several studies

533
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:51,840
following up seventy

534
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:55,919
80 000 people for 10 15 years

535
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,400
and showing for example that the people

536
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:00,400
who attended a religious service

537
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:04,000
at least once a week died 50

538
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:07,679
less in a 14 years follow-up

539
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:11,280
or died six times less from suicide

540
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:14,720
in this also 14 years follow-up

541
00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:18,240
so that is a a strong impact we don't

542
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:19,280
know

543
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,240
very well by now what are the mechanisms

544
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:24,240
we have some ideas about that

545
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,840
but the point is is currently well

546
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:30,159
understood that there is this impact

547
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:32,480
that we need to take this in account

548
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:36,240
and so i think this is one major change

549
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:37,840
since the beginning i started to

550
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,679
investigate this topic

551
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:41,840
but now i think the current challenge is

552
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:42,799
first

553
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:46,880
to disseminate this information to

554
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:49,679
general population and also in the

555
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:50,400
training

556
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,880
of physicians of nurses and

557
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:54,799
psychologists because sometimes

558
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:57,360
this knowledge has not been translated

559
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:58,000
yet

560
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:00,840
in actual clinical training of

561
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:03,120
professionals of health professionals

562
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:04,320
and for example couldn't

563
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:06,320
we are now working together with

564
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:08,000
professor john petit for harvard

565
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:08,799
university

566
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:11,840
in developing a curriculum

567
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:15,840
for psychiatric training in psychiatric

568
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:18,960
so we're exactly testing this

569
00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:22,640
new curriculum how could we insert

570
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:25,240
the curriculum spirituality to

571
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:26,559
psychiatrists

572
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:29,200
so this is one major challenge and the

573
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:30,480
second challenge i think

574
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:33,440
perhaps is more even of interest to

575
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:34,320
skeptical

576
00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:37,120
audience is uh okay but what is the

577
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:39,440
meaning of spirituality actually

578
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,159
so spirituality is because of course we

579
00:21:46,149 --> 00:21:44,400
can understand okay

580
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,159
church attendance can be related to

581
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:48,480
social support can be related to

582
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:52,080
beliefs but does actually have

583
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:55,039
an any ontological reality this is

584
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:56,320
spirituality

585
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:58,080
is there something actually beyond

586
00:22:01,270 --> 00:21:59,440
matter so

587
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:01,280
i think this studies for example

588
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:02,799
spiritual experiences

589
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:05,039
and try to understand the ultimate

590
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:07,280
source of these spiritual experiences

591
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:09,280
and the meaning of this experience to

592
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,559
human nature

593
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:12,960
i think is one of the most interesting

594
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:14,080
challenges

595
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:17,520
things that we have nowadays yes but i

596
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:19,600
really respect and admire

597
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,320
the way you've built the argument right

598
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:25,120
there which is to start with the data

599
00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:27,120
and just pound people over the head with

600
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:28,799
the data and say

601
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:31,039
now explain to me again while you're why

602
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,559
you're looking away

603
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:34,960
why you're insisting that this data is

604
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:35,760
the exact

605
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:38,280
opposite of what it comes through

606
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:40,480
overwhelmingly again and again

607
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:42,320
please explain that's what i hear you

608
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:44,880
saying and that is the the first step

609
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,480
and you know we could mirror that with

610
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:48,559
another area of interest that i want you

611
00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:49,600
to talk about

612
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:52,360
one of your interest areas is on

613
00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:53,760
establishing

614
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:56,559
evidence for the differentiation between

615
00:23:02,470 --> 00:22:58,159
mental disorders

616
00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:02,480
and spiritual experiences and that has

617
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,200
a real depth to it that i think will

618
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,360
come as kind of a surprise to people

619
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:09,120
because this isn't just like

620
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,480
oh my gosh our is everyone who's having

621
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:15,360
a spiritual experience are they crazy

622
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:16,159
kind of thing

623
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:18,480
no you've taken it a a whole step

624
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:20,400
further where it kind of reminds me of

625
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:21,120
like the

626
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:22,960
near-death experience research where

627
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:24,640
they've said okay does it have this

628
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,559
factor this factor this factor

629
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:28,559
then maybe we should consider it as part

630
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:30,000
of a mental disorder

631
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:32,080
and if it doesn't then we have to put it

632
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:33,600
into this other category that we're

633
00:23:35,669 --> 00:23:34,559
defining

634
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:35,679
do you want to walk us through that

635
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:38,720
research it's fascinating

636
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:42,000
yeah yeah this is this was actually the

637
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:46,400
topic of my phd dissertation in 2004

638
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:51,360
i investigated 115 spiritist mediums

639
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,760
and try to investigate the phenomenology

640
00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:55,360
of their experience

641
00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:58,640
and if and also the mental health of

642
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:01,840
these mediums and try to figure out

643
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:04,240
if they were psychotic if they had

644
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:05,520
mental disorders

645
00:24:08,789 --> 00:24:07,520
and if not what how could we

646
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:08,799
differentiate

647
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:12,080
these nonpathological experiences from

648
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:14,960
a psychotic or other mental disorder

649
00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:15,520
well

650
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:17,279
actually it's interesting they start off

651
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:19,120
that because my wife

652
00:24:24,310 --> 00:24:22,720
she is a historian and she was doing a

653
00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:24,320
phd also

654
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:27,279
and in her phd she was exactly

655
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:28,880
investigating

656
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:32,240
the psychiatric resistance regarding

657
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,440
spiritism and other religions that

658
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,919
foster spiritual experiences because not

659
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:40,000
only in brazil it was very strong

660
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:42,720
his resistance but also in europe and in

661
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:43,520
us

662
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:46,480
especially in the end of 19th century

663
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:49,039
and for a large part of 20th century

664
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:51,440
this kind of trans experience were

665
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:52,159
considered

666
00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:55,600
a major cause of mental disorder

667
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:58,320
or a symptom of mental disorder actually

668
00:25:02,310 --> 00:24:59,200
there were some

669
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:02,320
several some laws uh

670
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:05,360
forbidding the proxy of these religions

671
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:07,279
because they would be very harmful

672
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:10,400
to public health there is even

673
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:12,720
an author in brazil who who said that

674
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:15,039
spiritism was determiningly because of

675
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,640
madness in brazil

676
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:18,799
so i was very interested when i started

677
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:19,679
to read

678
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:23,840
her study and then i had that oh why

679
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:26,799
why not try to investigate nowadays what

680
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:27,120
is

681
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:33,919
investigation so basically what we found

682
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:35,760
in this studies but in several other

683
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,799
studies

684
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,520
that people having spiritual experiences

685
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:41,679
for example in leadership but also

686
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,840
other sorts of spiritual experiences

687
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:45,760
they have several experiences that are

688
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,559
quite similar to psychotic experience

689
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:49,919
for example they can hear

690
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:53,039
vices they can see things they can have

691
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:56,000
thought insertions feel insertions that

692
00:25:58,710 --> 00:25:56,559
are

693
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:58,720
usually related to schizophrenia or

694
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:01,120
other or other psychotic disorders

695
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:04,480
however despite having high levels

696
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:07,279
of these specific experiences they

697
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,400
usually had

698
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:11,039
a very good level of mental health very

699
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,840
good function

700
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:13,600
very good social adjustment and things

701
00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:15,120
like that so

702
00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:18,559
it became clear that they did not have

703
00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:21,760
a higher prevalence of mental disorder

704
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:24,080
we found that and other other

705
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:25,039
researchers have

706
00:26:31,669 --> 00:26:28,400
also found that and what became

707
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:31,679
is becoming more and more clear nowadays

708
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:35,200
is that uh this what we call positive

709
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:36,400
psychotic symptoms that

710
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:39,600
are hearing things uh seeing things

711
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:42,720
are not a good criteria to this

712
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:45,039
to detect mental disorder because for

713
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:47,360
example in a psychotic disorder

714
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:49,760
in addition to these positive psychotic

715
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:52,240
symptoms as we call in psychiatry seeing

716
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:52,799
things

717
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,440
they the psychotic patients also have

718
00:27:00,710 --> 00:27:00,080
cognitive disorganization they have

719
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,720
problems

720
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:02,960
in their interaction with people they

721
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:04,080
have problems

722
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,720
in their work in their family affairs

723
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:07,919
and also in the

724
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:10,640
social relationship the abundant effect

725
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:11,440
they have

726
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:14,720
several other symptoms that much

727
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:17,679
more reliable to make this distinction

728
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:18,000
so

729
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:21,360
we have moved a long way in with other

730
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:23,120
colleagues in this we also have

731
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,120
performed some neuro imaging

732
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,840
investigation functional imaging studies

733
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:29,919
uh analyzing the brain functioning

734
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:30,880
during these

735
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:34,080
trans experiences and currently now

736
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,120
we are performing genetic studies exoma

737
00:27:42,149 --> 00:27:39,440
study we are investigating 100

738
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:42,159
millions in brazil more prominent

739
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:43,440
mediums and we are

740
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:47,120
investigating the genetic expression

741
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:50,480
and if there is some sort of

742
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:53,760
some group of genes that are more

743
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:54,399
prevalent

744
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:56,559
or more active in mediums compared to

745
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:59,039
controls or compared to people

746
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,279
with psychotic disorders but we don't

747
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:03,600
have the results yet but we hope

748
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:06,159
that in a few months we'll have some

749
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:07,440
results

750
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:08,799
see that's what makes this so

751
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:11,600
interesting is there's so many layers

752
00:28:15,029 --> 00:28:14,320
to this that we have to explore i mean

753
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,039
the first

754
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:16,799
layer that you talked about from a

755
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:19,039
historical perspective is

756
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,320
why did we ever fall for that simplistic

757
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:24,559
kindergarten explanation that

758
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,960
everyone who hears voices is

759
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:28,080
hallucinating

760
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:30,960
i mean we always had a sense from a

761
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:32,320
cross culture cross

762
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:35,120
time and just stories in our families

763
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:37,039
that that wasn't true that it wasn't

764
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:38,640
that that didn't always mean it but we

765
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:40,799
accepted it out of hand so

766
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:42,399
i love when your research comes in and

767
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:44,399
goes well wait you know what

768
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:47,440
just through good modern psychology we

769
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:48,240
can

770
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:52,320
you said is someone distressed

771
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:55,120
by hearing these voices if they're

772
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:57,360
having hallucinations in their psychotic

773
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,000
or they're

774
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:00,240
experiencing schizophrenia we know what

775
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:02,000
that looks like and it doesn't look very

776
00:29:05,029 --> 00:29:03,679
good for that person in terms of their

777
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:05,039
stress level in terms of how they

778
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:06,480
socially function in terms of how they

779
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:07,440
function at work

780
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:09,200
hey we look over at this person none of

781
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:11,039
those things are happening that is

782
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:13,120
incredibly powerful and i love the way

783
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:14,640
you just went through it again in a very

784
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:15,760
matter-of-fact way

785
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:18,159
but in a very methodological way because

786
00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:19,520
it gets to this

787
00:29:24,149 --> 00:29:22,399
fundamental mind-body problem which

788
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,159
isn't really a problem which has always

789
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:26,159
been more or less obvious but science

790
00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:28,000
has kind of done this end run on it

791
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,640
about

792
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:31,679
materialism and it can only be you know

793
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,840
the the mind is 100 percent of function

794
00:29:37,830 --> 00:29:35,360
a function of the brain

795
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:37,840
it kind of addresses that problem in a

796
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:39,360
very direct way

797
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:41,840
but what is so fascinating which is

798
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:42,399
level

799
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:44,720
three is then you come back around and

800
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:46,000
say oh yeah

801
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,760
but we are looking at the biology of it

802
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,240
too we are looking at genetics

803
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:52,080
because that might play a role in it too

804
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:53,520
which would then kind of turn the whole

805
00:29:57,909 --> 00:29:55,120
thing upside down

806
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:57,919
and our gut instinct i think is of

807
00:30:02,070 --> 00:29:59,679
course it has to be both

808
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,080
it can't be an either or thing because

809
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:04,480
again experientially that's what we know

810
00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:07,120
that's what we're observing so what do

811
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:09,039
you think about that whole package of

812
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:09,600
the

813
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:16,000
leaning on materialism in a way and

814
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:16,480
saying

815
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:18,880
well you weren't totally out to lunch

816
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:21,120
there might be something there

817
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:23,600
yeah i like very much much aristotle

818
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:25,840
estoto when he said that

819
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:27,760
virtue is the middle ground this in the

820
00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:29,919
middle is not in the extremes

821
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:32,320
so usually when you have extremes the

822
00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:33,679
gladiator

823
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,399
both are partially correct and both are

824
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:38,320
partially wrong

825
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:41,120
and i more and more even my clean

826
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,080
corporate see

827
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:44,640
and i do i've emphasized it pretty much

828
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,760
with my

829
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:48,320
students my psychiat residents and so on

830
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:49,440
so forth

831
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:52,720
that we are bio psycho social spiritual

832
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:54,159
beings

833
00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:56,240
say that again so people get it

834
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:57,919
biological

835
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:01,200
psycho social

836
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,600
spiritual beings so we have all this

837
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:05,600
dimension

838
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:09,360
working together influencing each other

839
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:12,159
and if we take in consideration only one

840
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:12,720
of these

841
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:15,679
or if we exclude any of this we will

842
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:16,840
have an

843
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,000
incomplete perspective of human beings

844
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:22,159
it's not necessary to choose between

845
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:23,360
these perspectives

846
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,159
it's wrong doing that we must take

847
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:27,600
everything in consideration

848
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:30,320
just to give an example even in that

849
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:32,000
study that i said previously

850
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:34,640
from the harvard group about church

851
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:35,440
attendance

852
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:39,200
and mortality they found that

853
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:41,840
people who attend every week at least

854
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:42,720
once a week

855
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,600
religious service they died 50 percent

856
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:47,919
controlling first social demographic and

857
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:51,120
all other variables but they found what

858
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:52,559
would be some the main

859
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:55,600
mediators they found that people

860
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,720
who attended religious service so that

861
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:00,080
means i spilt off her

862
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:03,840
part it impact mortality

863
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:07,440
by first they had

864
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:10,240
lower levels of cigarette smoking so it

865
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:11,200
impacts some

866
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:14,320
behavior and biology they also had

867
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:16,399
higher levels of social integration so

868
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:17,840
the social aspect

869
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:20,960
and they had higher levels of optimism

870
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:23,760
and lower levels of depression so we

871
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:24,559
have here this

872
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:27,360
the spiritual factor impacting the

873
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,320
biological

874
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,480
the social and also the psychological

875
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,399
aspects so it's impossible

876
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,960
to to distinguish to separate all this

877
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:36,080
stuff so

878
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:38,320
we definitely we don't need because i

879
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:39,120
think this is

880
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:42,480
a very important point alex when people

881
00:32:46,389 --> 00:32:45,519
quite often i try to emphasize the

882
00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:46,399
spiritual

883
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:49,600
aspect they deny the psychological

884
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:52,240
or the biological aspects for example

885
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:52,640
even

886
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:55,200
the importance of spirituality to we

887
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:56,000
don't need to

888
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,679
deny the importance of psychiatric

889
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:59,600
medications i'm psychiatrists i

890
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:00,720
prescribe

891
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:03,039
psychiatric medicines of course they are

892
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:04,399
very very useful

893
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:07,279
well used of course i don't need to deny

894
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:07,840
this

895
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:10,399
to talk about the importance of

896
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:11,279
spirituality and

897
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:14,080
the same thing when i'm saying that many

898
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:14,640
people

899
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,640
who hear vice are not psychotic it does

900
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:18,080
not mean that everything

901
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:21,519
who hears voice is mentally health

902
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:24,559
that's not the case also so we don't

903
00:33:28,470 --> 00:33:25,279
need

904
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:28,480
to follow this trap make it be forced to

905
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:29,600
make choices

906
00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:33,200
or do you be do you have faith or reason

907
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:36,559
do you believe in spirituality or in

908
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:39,760
in science or whatever why i i don't

909
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:40,720
need to

910
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:43,840
because it's

911
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:46,480
it's very dangerous and there is a

912
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:47,679
temptation to

913
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:50,720
to go the easy way to just choose

914
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,279
one side of the dispute i think yeah i

915
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,360
think that's the major point

916
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:57,519
that's that's excellent very very well

917
00:34:03,590 --> 00:33:59,840
said i wanted to pivot a little bit

918
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:03,600
and do in skeptical fashion

919
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:06,559
poke a little bit at the problems that

920
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:06,960
do

921
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,800
come up so from another one of your

922
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:10,480
presentations

923
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,760
what do religion and spirituality mean

924
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:16,320
is the slide i picked i pulled up

925
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,960
i have a little bit of a little bit of

926
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:20,399
resistance to some of this

927
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,839
spirituality you define as the

928
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,000
relationship or contact with a

929
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:26,399
transcendent realm of reality

930
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,280
that is considered sacred the ultimate

931
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:31,200
truth or reality

932
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:34,240
so you have already given us such

933
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:38,000
a broad enriched view of how we need to

934
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:39,679
look at some of these issues

935
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,480
and at the same time we do need to pin

936
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,560
down these definitions but it seems like

937
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:46,879
every time we pin them down we create

938
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:47,280
more

939
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:50,560
problems what does transcendent

940
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:53,919
mean from a philosophical perspective of

941
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:56,879
idealism versus materialism right what

942
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,560
would we really be transcending

943
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,880
is everything that is material including

944
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,160
our body and our health

945
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:04,480
and our spirituality somehow emerging

946
00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:06,160
from a consciousness that we don't

947
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:07,359
completely understand

948
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:09,760
are we looking at it backwards when we

949
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,480
think about

950
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:12,400
transcending i'm sure this is something

951
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:14,160
you've thought about as well as the

952
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,119
sacred

953
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:17,440
what are we saying about the hierarchy

954
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:19,920
of consciousness about the order of this

955
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,079
consciousness that we don't can't even

956
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,160
pretend to fully understand that

957
00:35:28,710 --> 00:35:26,720
there is some sacredness what would that

958
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,720
mean there is some ultimate truth or

959
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,000
ultimate reality

960
00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:32,960
again these become very tricky words i

961
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:34,480
appreciate the need

962
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:37,599
to have some kind of ground some

963
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:40,400
ground that we start with but aren't we

964
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,079
also

965
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:44,160
have problems with with any kind of

966
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:47,359
definition that we try and land on

967
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:50,560
yeah i completely agree uh actually

968
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:53,599
in in science as a whole we need

969
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:55,200
definitions of births

970
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:57,599
because definitions help us to make

971
00:36:01,910 --> 00:35:58,640
distinctions

972
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:01,920
to help to say what we are talking about

973
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:04,880
and also to label things to to to make

974
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:07,280
distinctions the comparisons

975
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:11,040
and but we don't have good definitions

976
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:11,359
for

977
00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:18,480
that are really uh essential even

978
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:22,800
in physical regular science science

979
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:25,680
yes yeah even the finish of science what

980
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:27,680
is science or definition of science the

981
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:28,160
finish of

982
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,839
matter yeah we're going to measure

983
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:31,440
things outside of us

984
00:36:35,589 --> 00:36:34,240
i mean that's already possibly a major

985
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,599
misdemeanor so

986
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,640
so yeah so but it does not mean that you

987
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:40,320
should not strive to try to

988
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:43,440
find some sort of definition that people

989
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:46,720
in some way could grasp the the idea

990
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:48,160
that we are talking about

991
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:50,240
so and specifically also because we are

992
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:52,160
doing with the research so i i

993
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:54,800
work a lot as you you have said with the

994
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:55,839
research and

995
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,040
that and for example

996
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:01,280
we need to have some important

997
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,640
definitions

998
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,480
for example when we are talking about

999
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:06,000
the spirituality the

1000
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:08,560
the importance of spirituality or the

1001
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,720
impact of spirituality of the prevalence

1002
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,240
of the spirituality

1003
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:14,880
we need to try to in some sense to

1004
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:15,599
restrict

1005
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:17,680
it to some concept to to make it to

1006
00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:18,960
distinguish for example

1007
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:22,320
what is spirituality and what political

1008
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:23,599
ideology or

1009
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:27,040
what our ecological commitment whatever

1010
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:30,320
so uh so how can we distinguish that

1011
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:34,000
so based in many different authors from

1012
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:37,760
different perspectives we we have a book

1013
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:38,560
that

1014
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,680
we will release this august by oxford

1015
00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:43,280
and first press

1016
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:45,839
that is spirituality and mental health

1017
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:47,280
across cultures

1018
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:49,839
and we have at this book and in this

1019
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:50,480
book

1020
00:37:57,910 --> 00:37:53,599
we have a first chapter exactly where

1021
00:38:00,870 --> 00:37:57,920
we discuss the concept of spirituality

1022
00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:00,880
and also took in consideration very

1023
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:01,440
different

1024
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:04,160
alters from psychology anthropology

1025
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:05,520
history

1026
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:09,520
and that is kind of a kind of consensus

1027
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:12,800
that spirituality has to do with

1028
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:15,599
this transcendental aspect of reality

1029
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:16,400
and also

1030
00:38:21,030 --> 00:38:19,680
if you for example because i think a

1031
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:21,040
good concept

1032
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:24,400
should of course be

1033
00:38:27,670 --> 00:38:27,200
accepted by key leaders in the field but

1034
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:27,680
also

1035
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:30,560
and most important must reflect what

1036
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:31,040
actually

1037
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:34,079
happens in the real world so if

1038
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:37,680
we take a look at the most

1039
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:40,560
prevalent spiritual traditions around

1040
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:41,680
the globe

1041
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:44,880
hinduism buddhism christianity

1042
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:48,800
islamism christianity and even

1043
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:52,240
more uh indigenous traditions

1044
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:55,280
but basically all of them has

1045
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:58,240
or talks about about some transcendental

1046
00:39:02,710 --> 00:38:59,359
aspect of

1047
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:02,720
life of the universe there are

1048
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:06,400
spiritual beings there are god gods

1049
00:39:13,109 --> 00:39:09,920
ancestors whatever so it's it's

1050
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:13,119
uh edward tyler in the beginning uh in

1051
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:14,000
19th century

1052
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:15,200
the beginning of anthropology of

1053
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:17,440
religion he said all could be that

1054
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:20,320
there could be a religion without god

1055
00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:22,640
but that is not religion without spirit

1056
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:24,000
in some sense

1057
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:26,160
so if you understand the spirit or in

1058
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:27,359
this transcendental

1059
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:31,040
aspect of reality some entities or realm

1060
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:32,640
that goes beyond

1061
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:35,040
this material world that we have so i

1062
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:36,160
think this

1063
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,560
i mean transcendent in this sense in

1064
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:40,320
this something else

1065
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:43,040
beyond this material world that we have

1066
00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:43,520
so

1067
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:45,520
it seems that basically all spiritual

1068
00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:46,560
traditions

1069
00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:49,760
share this this is one common core of

1070
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:51,760
basically all spiritual traditions and

1071
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:53,920
another very important point if we take

1072
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:55,280
a look at this all these spiritual

1073
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:56,720
traditions

1074
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:59,280
they say that there is in some way some

1075
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:00,640
transcendental

1076
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:03,440
aspect of reality or of human beings and

1077
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:05,280
this transcendental aspect

1078
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:08,240
is the ultimate reality is the what

1079
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:08,839
really

1080
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:16,720
so because of that it is sacred

1081
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:20,000
so these are the two main reasons why we

1082
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:22,079
have emphasized the transcendental

1083
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:25,200
and the sacred and of course based on

1084
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:26,640
these experiences of

1085
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:29,920
spirituality of a transcendental sacred

1086
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:33,839
people share beliefs practices

1087
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:35,920
in a community this community is a

1088
00:40:38,870 --> 00:40:37,040
religion

1089
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:38,880
so this is basically the idea of course

1090
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:41,040
that we can raise issues about this

1091
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:42,319
definition but i think

1092
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:46,319
it it's quite broad to include

1093
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:49,440
the major not major but almost always

1094
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,520
spiritual tradition that we are aware of

1095
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:53,839
but at the same time it distinguishes

1096
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:54,880
for example

1097
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,839
for other aspects of secular life

1098
00:41:02,470 --> 00:40:59,760
because for example there are several

1099
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:02,480
scales of spirituality using psychology

1100
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:03,839
and medicine

1101
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:07,119
in them they quite often they they fear

1102
00:41:11,589 --> 00:41:08,319
they find spiritual

1103
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:11,599
as well as well-being meaning

1104
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:14,720
life sense of purpose

1105
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:17,040
i think that meaning life sense of

1106
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,400
purpose and peace

1107
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:20,800
could be outcomes of spiritual but not

1108
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:21,760
the same thing

1109
00:41:25,349 --> 00:41:23,920
because for example if i'm a marxist i

1110
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:25,359
can find my meaning of

1111
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,480
life in the struggle in the class uh

1112
00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:30,720
struggle and things like that but

1113
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:32,079
probably it's not necessarily

1114
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:33,200
spirituality and

1115
00:41:36,470 --> 00:41:35,920
some people the marxists will feel upset

1116
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:36,480
maybe

1117
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:39,280
called a spiritual person so i i think

1118
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:39,599
it's

1119
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,680
could

1120
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:45,680
differentiate spirituality from other

1121
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:46,880
aspects of life

1122
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:50,319
although they very often have

1123
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:53,359
connections i i think that's

1124
00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:57,040
wonderfully wonderfully important and uh

1125
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:58,560
so you know if i get together with a

1126
00:42:03,510 --> 00:42:00,880
group down at the beach to save the

1127
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,520
whales or to clean up the beach and

1128
00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:06,000
make our environment better and i tell

1129
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:07,920
people that that to me

1130
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:11,440
is my spirituality you might come along

1131
00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:12,640
and say well

1132
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:15,440
okay i'm not arguing against your

1133
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:16,079
understanding

1134
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:17,680
of it but that doesn't fit this

1135
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:19,839
definition for how i'm going to use it

1136
00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:20,880
in this research

1137
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:22,880
and i think it's very valuable for you

1138
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:24,560
to make that kind of distinction

1139
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:26,560
because so many times in our culture we

1140
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,359
seem to be completely inept or unwilling

1141
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:31,920
to just make some kind of common sense

1142
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,280
distinctions in the same way

1143
00:42:37,589 --> 00:42:36,240
yeah exactly you you summarize very very

1144
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:37,599
well yeah it's exactly

1145
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,920
of course people can call whatever they

1146
00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:41,520
want what they live but

1147
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:43,440
when we are talking science we need to

1148
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:46,240
have a more precise definition some

1149
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:47,440
boundaries to

1150
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:49,760
help us to make analysis even to compare

1151
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:51,599
for example

1152
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:55,200
if uh in fact is if an involvement

1153
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,240
in a more secular community like

1154
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:00,480
environmental issues or political issues

1155
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:02,640
has the same impact or not

1156
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:06,160
for a more spiritual base the

1157
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:08,880
community who even to ask this kind of

1158
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:09,760
questions

1159
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:12,720
we need to have clear definitions

1160
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:13,440
awesome

1161
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:15,599
okay so now i'm going to pivot again

1162
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:16,480
with another

1163
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:18,640
i think kind of tough question and

1164
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:19,599
you're going to

1165
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:21,280
i can't wait to hear what you have to

1166
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:23,040
say about this because you are

1167
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:25,359
so honest and you're so brave i mean you

1168
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:26,480
haven't been

1169
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:28,400
i guess the system hasn't worn you down

1170
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,400
enough yet or you you've

1171
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:32,560
you've transcended the system in a way

1172
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:33,440
but

1173
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:35,119
you know one of the ideas that we've

1174
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:36,480
explored on this site

1175
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:39,200
on this show is that a lot of people who

1176
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:40,000
wind up

1177
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,880
in doing this kind of work and

1178
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:45,040
especially pushing against materialism

1179
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:46,960
and pointing out that we are already

1180
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:49,119
in a post-materialist world if you

1181
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:50,720
really look at the cutting edge

1182
00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,400
science it is our it's been post

1183
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:54,240
materialistic for the longest time but

1184
00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:54,640
we

1185
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:57,599
can't seem to get past that dogma but a

1186
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,880
lot of times

1187
00:44:01,910 --> 00:44:00,720
there's a leaning towards the argument

1188
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:01,920
that science

1189
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:05,359
needs spirituality in order to

1190
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:08,000
explain the world or science needs

1191
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:09,200
spirituality

1192
00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:11,920
to become complete and i always want to

1193
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:13,119
say

1194
00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:16,240
that may be true but i think we

1195
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:18,880
we just in the in the in the interest of

1196
00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:21,359
really exploring all possibilities

1197
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,839
we have to explore the counter

1198
00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:25,119
hypothesis

1199
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:27,760
and that is that [\h__\h] science is doing

1200
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:28,560
everything

1201
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:31,520
it can to keep spirituality out of the

1202
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,079
game

1203
00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:34,240
to keep spirituality especially out of

1204
00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:37,119
the science business spirituality

1205
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:40,240
is is in some ways a threat to the

1206
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:41,920
business of science

1207
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:44,880
and if even if even if some people in

1208
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:46,880
your community and some people who are

1209
00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:48,000
fair-minded

1210
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:50,560
don't see it that way we can easily

1211
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:52,480
imagine

1212
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:55,680
other factors and forces that would see

1213
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:56,000
it

1214
00:45:01,750 --> 00:44:59,119
as a threat and uh

1215
00:45:02,829 --> 00:45:01,760
do you have any thoughts on on that in

1216
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:02,839
kind of a more

1217
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:05,920
parapolitical understanding of the

1218
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:06,640
tension

1219
00:45:13,109 --> 00:45:11,040
between science and spirituality

1220
00:45:14,470 --> 00:45:13,119
yes actually i've been interested in

1221
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:14,480
this subject a lot

1222
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:18,079
for for many years first of all

1223
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:21,440
this idea of unnecessary

1224
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:24,319
clash a necessary conflict of perennial

1225
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:24,960
conflict

1226
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,200
between science and religion

1227
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:29,119
spirituality

1228
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:32,240
is uh first of all it's a myth

1229
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:34,880
it's common knowledge nowadays in

1230
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:36,000
history of science

1231
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:42,720
nowadays accepts that so uh

1232
00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:44,560
except that just so we understand each

1233
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,000
other accepts the idea that

1234
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:48,000
well science couldn't move forward if we

1235
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:49,440
ever considered

1236
00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:51,040
any of the stuff you're talking about

1237
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:52,880
well we'll just all collapse and

1238
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:54,240
that's what you're saying is a myth

1239
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:55,920
right

1240
00:46:01,990 --> 00:45:58,960
what i'm saying is the idea that

1241
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:02,000
science necessarily the nice religion

1242
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:02,960
religion

1243
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:05,680
necessarily is no opposition to science

1244
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:06,960
sometimes we

1245
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:09,920
we've learned this in school or even in

1246
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:11,280
the university

1247
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:15,040
or in science promotion

1248
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:17,119
actually it's not true okay it's a myth

1249
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,560
that there is a perennial conflict

1250
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:20,480
between science and religion this is

1251
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:24,000
nowadays it's common knowledge in

1252
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:27,599
history of science actually if we

1253
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:30,000
see throughout history at least in the

1254
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,119
western world

1255
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:34,319
at least since the ancient greece

1256
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:38,000
there has been a strong connection

1257
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:40,720
between spirituality and science and

1258
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,160
philosophy and

1259
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:44,160
reasoning and things like that if we

1260
00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:45,920
take for example in consideration

1261
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:48,960
pythagoras socrates plato

1262
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:51,920
aristotle and since then there is a

1263
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:54,400
strong connection between

1264
00:47:01,750 --> 00:46:57,920
a spiritual issues and religion

1265
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:01,760
and science and even the scientific

1266
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:05,280
revolution in 16th century

1267
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:08,800
with galileo kepler robert boyle

1268
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:11,599
francis baker all of them actually were

1269
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:13,200
spiritually committed people

1270
00:47:19,589 --> 00:47:16,240
and also what is even

1271
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,599
more surprising from many people it was

1272
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:21,280
surprised me when i learned this for the

1273
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:22,559
first time

1274
00:47:27,109 --> 00:47:26,319
they they were spiritually motivated to

1275
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:27,119
do science

1276
00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:30,160
actually they they thought that they

1277
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:32,079
were reading the book of nature

1278
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:34,000
the book of nature that was written by

1279
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:35,200
god so

1280
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:38,400
if we understand the creation we have a

1281
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,520
bad understanding

1282
00:47:44,549 --> 00:47:42,000
of the creator so understanding the

1283
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:44,559
creation would be the best way

1284
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:47,680
to glorify god it this is the word of

1285
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:49,839
francis bacon for example

1286
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:51,839
so they were spiritually motivated

1287
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:54,480
people isaac newton and so on so forth

1288
00:47:58,069 --> 00:47:56,800
so actually this prevalent view in the

1289
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,079
academic environment

1290
00:48:02,470 --> 00:47:59,839
of a necessary opposition between

1291
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:02,480
science and spirituality is an exception

1292
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:05,280
basically from the 20th century for the

1293
00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:05,680
end

1294
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,440
if we take a large historical

1295
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:09,280
perspective it started

1296
00:48:15,670 --> 00:48:12,640
in the end of 19th century

1297
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:15,680
endured and endured until the end of

1298
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:17,119
20th century so

1299
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:19,440
nowadays it's not more so the best

1300
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:20,800
universities in the world

1301
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:23,119
however the cambridge oxfords all of

1302
00:48:26,069 --> 00:48:24,079
them have

1303
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:26,079
departments of science and religion

1304
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:27,359
discussing the

1305
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:29,520
possibilities of integration so the

1306
00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:30,800
first point is in this

1307
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:33,280
historical perspective this idea of

1308
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:34,559
conflict it's a

1309
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:38,079
historical short period

1310
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:41,280
that is that that

1311
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:45,200
has gone but on the other side

1312
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,599
i don't think that is the same thing

1313
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:49,680
spirituality and science

1314
00:48:52,870 --> 00:48:52,240
and then this is not necessarily we need

1315
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:52,880
to

1316
00:49:00,390 --> 00:48:56,720
forth i think that is a space

1317
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:00,400
for spiritual life that is a space for

1318
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:03,920
scientific life so uh they are not

1319
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:05,920
they have contacts but they are not the

1320
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:07,040
same thing

1321
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:10,000
actually my now you are more kind of

1322
00:49:13,829 --> 00:49:11,520
philosophical

1323
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:13,839
thinking i think we have basically three

1324
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:15,680
major ways to grasp

1325
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:19,760
reality through art to spirituality

1326
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:21,599
into science through science i think

1327
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:23,040
these are three different and

1328
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:24,480
complementary ways

1329
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:29,200
to grasp reality of course they have

1330
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:31,280
points of contact but sometimes they

1331
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:33,119
don't have so this is one time

1332
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:36,160
a student scientist we we should be

1333
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,960
open to understand to study and

1334
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:40,079
understand with

1335
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:43,280
open mind all sorts of

1336
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:45,680
things that happens in nature so all

1337
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:47,200
sorts of human experience

1338
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:49,760
everything that happens should be of

1339
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:50,720
interest

1340
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,760
to to a scientist so we need taking

1341
00:49:57,910 --> 00:49:55,200
consideration all sorts

1342
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,920
of experience including spiritual

1343
00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:59,200
experiences

1344
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,520
and we also should be open to to have

1345
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:03,599
all sorts of explanations for this

1346
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,559
experience for example if

1347
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,160
we are studying near-death experience of

1348
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,319
course we should take in consideration

1349
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:10,880
the possibilities just the brain hypoxia

1350
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:12,160
causing that we should take in

1351
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,760
consideration that just the

1352
00:50:17,589 --> 00:50:16,319
psychological aspects like fear of death

1353
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,599
we should take consideration that

1354
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:19,599
cultural aspects are explaining but we

1355
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:20,160
also

1356
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:24,599
should be allowed to think that perhaps

1357
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:27,359
biopsychosocial aspects are not enough

1358
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:28,240
to explain

1359
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:31,440
everything without a residual so we

1360
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:32,640
should be

1361
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:35,359
allowed to think the possibility for

1362
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,319
example that

1363
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:38,880
and sign a kind of non-material

1364
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:41,119
consciousness could be part of this

1365
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:43,760
so and in this uh non-material

1366
00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:45,040
consciousness would be not

1367
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:48,240
supernatural because i claim with many

1368
00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:48,880
others

1369
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:52,079
for expanded naturalism so we think that

1370
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,440
nature is everything that exists and

1371
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:58,079
nature may be something beyond that

1372
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:58,800
there

1373
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,599
may be constitute not only from matter

1374
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:03,200
physical force and particles

1375
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:05,760
but perhaps consciousness is another

1376
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,280
irreducible aspect

1377
00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:09,280
of nature you should be open to

1378
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:10,400
investigate that but

1379
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:13,520
of course i respect those who think no

1380
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:14,000
no

1381
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:15,760
we think that everything should be

1382
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:17,920
explained by biopsychosocial aspects

1383
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,960
that's fine

1384
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:21,200
they should work on their paradigm they

1385
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:22,240
should work

1386
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:24,720
on this theory and try to explain

1387
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:25,520
everything

1388
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:28,480
but off but on the other side it should

1389
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:29,520
be allowed

1390
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:33,200
that other paradigm candidates work

1391
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:35,599
and there is a philosopher of science in

1392
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:37,760
hilakatus that cause there should be

1393
00:51:44,710 --> 00:51:40,960
a darwinian competition of research

1394
00:51:47,349 --> 00:51:44,720
programs and the the better

1395
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:47,359
programs will prevail so i think that's

1396
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:48,800
the point we should be

1397
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:51,440
truly open but at the same time very

1398
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:52,079
rigorous

1399
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:53,920
in investigation investigating these

1400
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:56,079
different possibilities

1401
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:57,599
you know that's wonderful and i love the

1402
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:59,440
way you've kind of laid out the path

1403
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:00,960
forward

1404
00:52:04,710 --> 00:52:03,440
and you're even suggesting that you see

1405
00:52:07,030 --> 00:52:04,720
definite movement

1406
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:07,040
on that path certainly the way you've

1407
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:09,839
framed it in terms of the

1408
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:13,359
bio psycho social spiritual

1409
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:14,960
you know all those elements being

1410
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:16,960
together i guess

1411
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:19,680
what i'm trying to do is add another

1412
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:20,319
element

1413
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:23,680
to that and that is in the social

1414
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,160
aspect we have the political and in

1415
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:28,160
particular the parapolitical

1416
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:31,440
and the example that i always use is

1417
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:33,599
project stargate you know the famous

1418
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,280
remote viewing project

1419
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,440
at stanford research institute some of

1420
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:39,440
the most successful parapsychology

1421
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:41,280
experiments in history

1422
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:43,040
and russell targ and hal put off you

1423
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:44,800
know they did publish those two in peer

1424
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:46,800
review journals

1425
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:50,240
but there was a parapolitical aspect of

1426
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:50,880
that

1427
00:52:57,549 --> 00:52:54,640
and by then i mean

1428
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:57,559
they were way past materialism they

1429
00:53:01,510 --> 00:52:58,720
presupposed

1430
00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:01,520
that they were operating in the extended

1431
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:02,240
realm

1432
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,440
they weren't sitting there wringing

1433
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:05,520
their hands going oh gosh gee are these

1434
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,960
things going to work they already proved

1435
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:08,400
that they work they had already geller

1436
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:09,920
in and he proved that they work and then

1437
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,640
they had

1438
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:12,480
you know joe mcmonachel come in and he

1439
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:13,680
could do it and they

1440
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:15,599
so they were off to the races and now

1441
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:17,680
it's like go find that russian sub

1442
00:53:22,390 --> 00:53:20,400
go do this go do that but from a

1443
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:22,400
parapolitical standpoint

1444
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,880
the message was very different you know

1445
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:26,800
there was this invisible college

1446
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:31,680
that i think is still in existence of

1447
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:34,960
let's not let's not move the

1448
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:36,559
move the needle too far in that

1449
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:38,640
direction let's not don't go too fast

1450
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,200
you know and

1451
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:41,119
i don't know who the guys at harvard

1452
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:42,640
you're referring to but there's a bunch

1453
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:43,839
of other guys at harvard

1454
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:45,920
who are not going in that direction and

1455
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,000
maybe are being told to

1456
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:50,079
you know hey just take the pedal off the

1457
00:53:53,589 --> 00:53:51,200
gas there

1458
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:53,599
i think that's in play i think it's

1459
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:54,720
always in play

1460
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:56,800
and i think it plays a much bigger role

1461
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,000
in this stuff

1462
00:54:01,910 --> 00:54:00,480
than we're willing to sometimes

1463
00:54:05,589 --> 00:54:01,920
acknowledge

1464
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:05,599
what do you think yeah i agree

1465
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:08,800
i think that the social and political

1466
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:10,480
aspects of science

1467
00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:15,680
are extremely important and

1468
00:54:19,190 --> 00:54:18,400
that is because of this i think we

1469
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:19,200
should work

1470
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:22,240
in three different levels

1471
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:25,440
and we are trying exactly doing this

1472
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:29,040
the first is producing better data

1473
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:32,640
this is one point the second is to

1474
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:35,920
address some philosophical

1475
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:38,559
and historical misconceptions about

1476
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:40,960
science and about spirituality i think

1477
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:44,240
this is the key issue because

1478
00:54:51,990 --> 00:54:47,760
usually during our scientific training

1479
00:54:55,109 --> 00:54:52,000
during our education most of us

1480
00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:55,119
were taught that religion

1481
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:57,760
or spirituality is something bad

1482
00:55:01,990 --> 00:54:59,440
something from the past

1483
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,000
something of superitition is has been

1484
00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:04,480
proved that the brain generates mind and

1485
00:55:08,789 --> 00:55:05,520
something beyond that

1486
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:08,799
it's just so we we learn that we

1487
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:13,520
we we sometimes we accept that

1488
00:55:20,069 --> 00:55:16,960
and uh so i think

1489
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:20,079
one major aspect is exactly

1490
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,280
to show the inconsistence and

1491
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:25,839
problems of these assumptions these

1492
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:27,280
misguided assumptions

1493
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:30,480
as i said for example several examples

1494
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,760
of misguided presuppositions first

1495
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:35,599
science and religion has been always in

1496
00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:36,720
opposition

1497
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:40,079
second science has proved that there is

1498
00:55:44,549 --> 00:55:41,839
only matter in the world

1499
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:44,559
third everything non-material means

1500
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:45,599
superstition

1501
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:48,720
means back to the dark ages and

1502
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:51,359
so all this stuff these are very strong

1503
00:55:55,950 --> 00:55:52,559
ideas

1504
00:55:59,510 --> 00:55:55,960
so we need first to tackle these

1505
00:56:02,150 --> 00:55:59,520
misconceptions because if we don't

1506
00:56:03,589 --> 00:56:02,160
address these misconceptions people

1507
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:03,599
don't even take a look

1508
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:05,680
at the evidence because they know he

1509
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:06,640
advanced that

1510
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:09,920
it is impossible it's not only possible

1511
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:13,839
but extremely harmful because it has

1512
00:56:21,990 --> 00:56:17,839
always causing harm throughout history

1513
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:22,000
so we were only to to to flourish

1514
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:25,280
when we were able to remove all this

1515
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:27,920
terrible superstition idea so of course

1516
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:28,640
i i'm

1517
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:32,079
being ironic and

1518
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:36,240
make a simplification but this mindset

1519
00:56:43,109 --> 00:56:39,440
i think is it is the major problem so

1520
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:43,119
when we show that these misconceptions

1521
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:45,440
does not stand through a good

1522
00:56:48,549 --> 00:56:47,359
philosophical analysis a good historical

1523
00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:48,559
analysis and if

1524
00:56:56,789 --> 00:56:52,400
we disseminate this knowledge

1525
00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:56,799
uh through general audience of course

1526
00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:00,000
to general audience but also in the new

1527
00:57:04,069 --> 00:57:02,640
training scientists the new training

1528
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:04,079
clinicians

1529
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:07,280
if we were able to teach them since the

1530
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:08,079
beginning

1531
00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:11,200
that is not true necessarily that it

1532
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,240
will be

1533
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,160
very very important so this is one just

1534
00:57:19,670 --> 00:57:16,480
another example

1535
00:57:20,230 --> 00:57:19,680
a phd student of mine we made a national

1536
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:20,240
survey

1537
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,160
with 4 000 psychologists in brazil

1538
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:27,359
and one question is do you think that

1539
00:57:32,150 --> 00:57:29,359
spirituality impacts health

1540
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:32,160
that was the question nowadays it's

1541
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:33,599
established knowledge there are

1542
00:57:37,829 --> 00:57:35,520
literally thousands of studies showing

1543
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:37,839
that do you believe

1544
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:41,040
that the psychologist with the higher

1545
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:45,200
training with phd and postdoc they had

1546
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:47,520
lower levels of endorsement as a

1547
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:48,240
statement

1548
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:51,119
so the scientific training created

1549
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:53,680
anti-scientific beliefs

1550
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:57,760
deny the scientific evidence

1551
00:58:00,950 --> 00:58:00,480
that spirituality impacts health so this

1552
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:00,960
is

1553
00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:04,240
very very alarming how our scientific

1554
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:05,040
training

1555
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:08,640
is generating anti-scientific beliefs

1556
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:12,160
claiming having defending science

1557
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:15,440
so the two points first is to to address

1558
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:16,799
these misconceptions

1559
00:58:21,910 --> 00:58:19,839
second is to generate more

1560
00:58:23,349 --> 00:58:21,920
evidence and the third i think it's very

1561
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:23,359
important but we have

1562
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:26,160
not worked a lot on this is developing

1563
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:26,480
some

1564
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:31,119
that could make sense of everything

1565
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:33,280
like for example like frederick myers

1566
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:34,960
with his subliminal mind and

1567
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:38,000
other authors who propose some

1568
00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:41,119
kind of failures or paradigm candidates

1569
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:43,920
to explain the whole thing for example

1570
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:45,040
thomas kuhn

1571
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:46,960
instructor of scientific revolutions

1572
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:49,200
showed that people would never

1573
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:51,280
abandon a previous paradigm if they

1574
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,520
don't have another one a better one

1575
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:55,200
so it's not only enough to show

1576
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:57,280
anomalies in the old paradigm

1577
00:59:01,030 --> 00:59:00,160
it's important to show a new and better

1578
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,040
paradigm

1579
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:03,680
i think that's absolutely brilliant

1580
00:59:07,349 --> 00:59:04,640
wonderful

1581
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:07,359
and i you know what first first thing

1582
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:08,000
that pops

1583
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:10,799
into my mind is part of the conditioning

1584
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:12,720
is this idea that

1585
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:15,760
philosophy is dead right and uh right

1586
00:59:22,390 --> 00:59:19,040
stephen hawking's famous thing and it's

1587
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:22,400
as you kind of so beautifully point out

1588
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:24,160
it is really the opposite of that is

1589
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:25,520
true is that

1590
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:28,160
philosophy always has to be the starting

1591
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:29,760
point to a certain scent even if we take

1592
00:59:34,390 --> 00:59:32,000
the philosophy of science which you've

1593
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:34,400
so eloquently kind of laid out how these

1594
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:35,280
issues are

1595
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:39,119
philosophy of science questions not just

1596
00:59:43,349 --> 00:59:41,680
ruminating about the world but about

1597
00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:43,359
practically how we would do this

1598
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:46,240
and then i loved that you were you were

1599
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:47,119
remaining

1600
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:50,480
grounded in the data in the method

1601
00:59:55,190 --> 00:59:52,880
hey folks we still do have this

1602
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:55,200
scientific method and you know what

1603
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,880
it's a tool that can still be applied

1604
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:58,400
and still move us forward

1605
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:00,240
so that's all wonderful so now we got to

1606
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:06,390
and at the beginning of the show you did

1607
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:09,359
allude to some of the work you've done

1608
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:10,000
with

1609
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:13,280
psychic surgery uh the john of god thing

1610
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:16,960
which collects international headlines

1611
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:20,000
and it should it challenges us in so

1612
01:00:24,309 --> 01:00:21,119
many ways

1613
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:24,319
about the

1614
01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:27,440
the dark side of spirituality and

1615
01:00:33,270 --> 01:00:31,440
even the dark side of the social aspect

1616
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:33,280
of it that we do need this sense of

1617
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:34,160
community

1618
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:37,200
we are all susceptible to the cult kind

1619
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:38,000
of thing

1620
01:00:41,670 --> 01:00:39,920
because it's baked into who we are it's

1621
01:00:43,589 --> 01:00:41,680
not like a bad thing it's like hey we

1622
01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:43,599
want to be around together and

1623
01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:45,040
we want at that wedding or it's a

1624
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:47,280
funeral we all want to get together

1625
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:50,160
and people who find a way to turn that

1626
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,200
against this

1627
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:54,000
can gain great power and then add to the

1628
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:54,640
fact that

1629
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,920
they may be tapping into an extended

1630
01:01:03,349 --> 01:00:58,720
realm that

1631
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:03,359
also might at times be aligned with some

1632
01:01:09,030 --> 01:01:06,559
malevolent kind of aspects of

1633
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:09,040
whatever this extended nature is and we

1634
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:10,799
have all the things that we see in john

1635
01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:11,280
of god

1636
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:14,640
the worst of the worst rapist murderer

1637
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:18,400
ran camps where he would force these

1638
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:20,079
women to have children and then he'd

1639
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,240
kill them afterwards and sell the babies

1640
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,200
the worst of the worst and even what's

1641
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:26,640
reported

1642
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:30,720
is often still sanitized a little bit

1643
01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:33,359
but here's the spin on it that i think

1644
01:01:37,109 --> 01:01:34,400
is so

1645
01:01:39,030 --> 01:01:37,119
important when you went there i mean

1646
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:39,040
first you have to tell us

1647
01:01:44,309 --> 01:01:41,760
you know you went there because for 40

1648
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:44,319
years this guy was just regarded as

1649
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:46,480
getting results and you go there and you

1650
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:48,240
find that he does sometimes get some

1651
01:01:51,510 --> 01:01:49,040
results

1652
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:51,520
you don't go there and say this never

1653
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:52,079
nothing

1654
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:54,400
ever happened you go there and come back

1655
01:01:57,430 --> 01:01:55,119
and go well

1656
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,440
it's kind of a mixed bag but yeah there

1657
01:02:01,910 --> 01:01:59,760
are some people that later report of

1658
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:01,920
having a positive result and you i'm

1659
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:03,280
sure had no way of knowing

1660
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:04,640
all the other stuff that was going on

1661
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:06,000
like so many other people in the world

1662
01:02:09,829 --> 01:02:06,960
didn't

1663
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:09,839
but there's so many layers to this where

1664
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:11,680
do you even want to start maybe start

1665
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:13,440
with telling us

1666
01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:16,720
specifically what was your experience

1667
01:02:19,910 --> 01:02:17,760
what was your

1668
01:02:21,670 --> 01:02:19,920
reason for going there what year it was

1669
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:21,680
and then what happened is this thing

1670
01:02:26,230 --> 01:02:22,960
unfolded

1671
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:26,240
okay i think that of course

1672
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:29,599
all sorts of ideas and even of good

1673
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:30,880
concepts could be

1674
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:35,280
misused science is a big example

1675
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:38,400
the nazism was a

1676
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:41,680
big misuse of science the

1677
01:02:48,549 --> 01:02:45,440
darwinism was misused to support racism

1678
01:02:49,990 --> 01:02:48,559
and things like that so yeah millions of

1679
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:50,000
people were curious based

1680
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:53,680
on misguided use of science for example

1681
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:56,880
we can misuse the idea of justice and

1682
01:03:00,870 --> 01:02:57,440
then

1683
01:03:01,990 --> 01:03:00,880
we had people in name of injustice and

1684
01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:02,000
things like that

1685
01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:04,160
so i think that spirituality religion is

1686
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:05,599
the same you know of course

1687
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:09,280
it can do much harm if it is misused

1688
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:11,440
i think that's the point is like any

1689
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:12,319
other

1690
01:03:18,309 --> 01:03:16,559
major force in

1691
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:18,319
human's life hold on because that's just

1692
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,920
you now let's make sure we're talk

1693
01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:21,200
because sometimes we talk about this

1694
01:03:24,789 --> 01:03:23,200
stuff when we don't really nail it down

1695
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:24,799
you are primarily i would say

1696
01:03:29,430 --> 01:03:27,119
exclusively talking about the social

1697
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:29,440
aspect of it and maybe you couldn't

1698
01:03:32,950 --> 01:03:30,799
spread that out to the

1699
01:03:34,549 --> 01:03:32,960
bio psycho part that you're talking

1700
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:34,559
about but there

1701
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:37,039
is evidence if you're willing to let

1702
01:03:41,750 --> 01:03:38,160
some of it in

1703
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:41,760
that there is a spiritual part of this

1704
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:44,000
that is negative that is dark that is

1705
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:44,799
evil that

1706
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:46,960
is all those things that and this is

1707
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:48,640
widely reported right i'm gonna have to

1708
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:49,839
dance around this

1709
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:52,480
so that kind of brings a whole different

1710
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:55,119
flavor to that you know was john of god

1711
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:57,920
being demonically controlled to kind of

1712
01:04:01,190 --> 01:03:59,520
go way out there on the edge

1713
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:01,200
we don't know but doesn't that have to

1714
01:04:05,589 --> 01:04:02,960
be on the table as well as all the other

1715
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:05,599
things you're talking about

1716
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,200
yeah i think so i think that uh

1717
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:11,280
all spiritual traditions talk about some

1718
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:12,400
kind of negative

1719
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:16,079
spiritual force and i think this should

1720
01:04:19,589 --> 01:04:17,119
be

1721
01:04:21,589 --> 01:04:19,599
also discussed and specifically

1722
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:21,599
specifically about john of god

1723
01:04:28,710 --> 01:04:25,520
we perform a study with him in 95

1724
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:28,720
26 years ago we went there was a match

1725
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,079
we shouldn't we went there

1726
01:04:34,390 --> 01:04:32,079
we interviewed people before and after

1727
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:34,400
the surgeries we follow up the surgeries

1728
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:35,839
we filmed the surgeries

1729
01:04:39,990 --> 01:04:38,319
we took the tissues that he claimed to

1730
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:40,000
have removed from patients actually he

1731
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:40,799
removed these

1732
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:43,920
tissues from patients and so

1733
01:04:48,789 --> 01:04:46,559
we found out that actually he didn't use

1734
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:48,799
any anesthetic procedures

1735
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:51,520
that we were able to detect and accept

1736
01:04:55,349 --> 01:04:52,720
procedures

1737
01:04:58,069 --> 01:04:55,359
they pay most of patients did not report

1738
01:05:01,349 --> 01:04:58,079
any pain despite being cut

1739
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:01,359
with kitchen knives quite often

1740
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:04,559
and the tissues that he removed were

1741
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:05,359
compatible

1742
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:08,640
with the the places from where

1743
01:05:13,510 --> 01:05:11,440
they were removed but most of these

1744
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:13,520
tissues were not pathological ones

1745
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:16,000
for example he removed it from health

1746
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:16,960
tissues

1747
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,000
from these different places and also

1748
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:22,480
he it was clear that he performed a ver

1749
01:05:26,549 --> 01:05:24,400
dramatic in quite strong

1750
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:26,559
way during his surgeries we report

1751
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:28,480
everything that is in a paper published

1752
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:29,280
by the

1753
01:05:33,990 --> 01:05:31,920
brazilian medical association and also

1754
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:34,000
later we publish with stanley krippner a

1755
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:36,000
version of journal shamanic brexit

1756
01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:38,880
english version of this paper at that

1757
01:05:43,589 --> 01:05:40,240
time you have never heard

1758
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:43,599
about this accusations of sexual

1759
01:05:50,549 --> 01:05:46,960
problems and things like that but anyway

1760
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,559
we but since then i was not directly

1761
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:52,240
focused in study of

1762
01:05:55,990 --> 01:05:54,960
healing and psychic surgeries anymore i

1763
01:05:59,029 --> 01:05:56,000
took a different

1764
01:06:01,589 --> 01:05:59,039
path in my career investigating more

1765
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:01,599
spiritual experiences mental health

1766
01:06:05,589 --> 01:06:04,400
and mind brain connections although i

1767
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:05,599
think it's very important

1768
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:07,680
to the study of healing spiritual

1769
01:06:12,230 --> 01:06:09,440
healing and things like that

1770
01:06:14,069 --> 01:06:12,240
and even here in brazil we have recently

1771
01:06:17,109 --> 01:06:14,079
a discussion about

1772
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:17,119
mediums who claim to be to receive

1773
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:21,119
letters from deceased and that is a big

1774
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:24,400
claim that some of them

1775
01:06:28,150 --> 01:06:26,079
are actually fraudulent taking

1776
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:28,160
information from internet for social

1777
01:06:32,150 --> 01:06:29,680
media and things like that

1778
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:32,160
so of course we need to be aware of all

1779
01:06:36,710 --> 01:06:33,359
of this

1780
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:36,720
fraud and misuse of spirituality

1781
01:06:43,829 --> 01:06:40,559
to have control and or other

1782
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:43,839
evil uses of religion we need to be

1783
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:44,799
aware of this

1784
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,599
it's it's not new for example if we go

1785
01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:49,119
to the gospels

1786
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:53,520
we can see that the people who jesus

1787
01:06:59,990 --> 01:06:56,559
blamed the most or was more had more

1788
01:07:01,910 --> 01:07:00,000
strong words to say to what exactly the

1789
01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:01,920
religious people who misuse their

1790
01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:03,039
religious power

1791
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:06,160
definitely

1792
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:08,480
a big issue that needs to be taken

1793
01:07:11,109 --> 01:07:09,599
consideration

1794
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:11,119
right i'm just going to poke at this a

1795
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:12,799
little bit more because

1796
01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:15,680
i'm very interested in this topic of

1797
01:07:18,390 --> 01:07:16,319
evil

1798
01:07:21,349 --> 01:07:18,400
not because i want to stare into the

1799
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:21,359
abyss but because i want to point out

1800
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:24,400
how inept we've allowed ourselves to be

1801
01:07:28,789 --> 01:07:26,960
in dealing with this and you know you

1802
01:07:30,549 --> 01:07:28,799
mentioned the forced choice thing and i

1803
01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:30,559
think that's where we're at here

1804
01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:33,680
with evil we're forced into either this

1805
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:36,400
very rigid kindergarten atheistic well

1806
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:38,400
that can't possibly be true

1807
01:07:44,549 --> 01:07:41,599
understanding or we're forced into

1808
01:07:46,150 --> 01:07:44,559
oh here it is it's in this book i'll

1809
01:07:47,910 --> 01:07:46,160
bring out the gospel i'll bring up the

1810
01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:47,920
crown i'll bring out whatever

1811
01:07:52,309 --> 01:07:50,240
and my book will tell us all we need to

1812
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:52,319
know

1813
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:55,440
where you were going ultimately i think

1814
01:07:58,870 --> 01:07:58,000
you know in in terms of actually

1815
01:08:02,069 --> 01:07:58,880
developing

1816
01:08:02,309 --> 01:08:02,079
some kind of uh advanced understanding

1817
01:08:04,789 --> 01:08:02,319
of

1818
01:08:05,349 --> 01:08:04,799
these extended consciousness realms and

1819
01:08:07,270 --> 01:08:05,359
the light

1820
01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:07,280
and the dark and the good and the evil

1821
01:08:12,789 --> 01:08:09,760
as it exists as it influences us

1822
01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:12,799
is what we really want on some level

1823
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,920
and it's really the only way intuitively

1824
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:17,679
we know that's the only way to explain

1825
01:08:20,709 --> 01:08:18,880
john a god

1826
01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:20,719
john of god isn't just ripping people

1827
01:08:27,349 --> 01:08:24,000
off there's something darker going on

1828
01:08:30,470 --> 01:08:27,359
those catholic priests that abuse

1829
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:30,480
at a systematic level all those

1830
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:33,279
children all those families in brazil

1831
01:08:36,149 --> 01:08:34,560
some of the highest rates

1832
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:36,159
in the world and yet you know the

1833
01:08:37,990 --> 01:08:37,600
catholic church isn't out of business in

1834
01:08:39,349 --> 01:08:38,000
brazil

1835
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:39,359
they're not out of business any place in

1836
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:41,040
the world they're allowed to go on and

1837
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:41,359
it's

1838
01:08:46,070 --> 01:08:44,080
clearly an institutional level problem

1839
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:46,080
if it was any normal organization they

1840
01:08:49,030 --> 01:08:46,400
just

1841
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:49,040
shut it down our intuitive sense is

1842
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:49,440
there

1843
01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:52,640
is something more to that

1844
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:56,880
that isn't just bio-psycho

1845
01:09:02,789 --> 01:09:01,359
it's spiritual and how do we get there

1846
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:02,799
first of all maybe you don't agree with

1847
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:05,199
that but if you do agree with it

1848
01:09:08,309 --> 01:09:07,679
how do we get there it's a very very

1849
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:08,319
tricky

1850
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:11,839
and touchy subject to to really full-on

1851
01:09:16,870 --> 01:09:14,960
contemplate what that evil is without

1852
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:16,880
just doing a drive-by stare into it

1853
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:18,560
watching netflix

1854
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:20,960
how scary to say what is really going on

1855
01:09:24,550 --> 01:09:21,920
there

1856
01:09:25,269 --> 01:09:24,560
i i don't know if i have a good answer

1857
01:09:28,789 --> 01:09:25,279
to

1858
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:28,799
your very interesting challenging

1859
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:30,080
questions

1860
01:09:37,110 --> 01:09:33,520
yeah i think all of us have our

1861
01:09:40,229 --> 01:09:37,120
angels and demons inside us

1862
01:09:41,430 --> 01:09:40,239
and we need to be very careful to which

1863
01:09:44,470 --> 01:09:41,440
of them we will

1864
01:09:46,550 --> 01:09:44,480
feed and and

1865
01:09:48,229 --> 01:09:46,560
it's even worse because we know that

1866
01:09:51,910 --> 01:09:48,239
some of the worst

1867
01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:51,920
things done in history

1868
01:09:55,669 --> 01:09:54,560
were done in the name of good in some

1869
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:55,679
sense

1870
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:57,760
uh of course usually people don't say

1871
01:10:00,830 --> 01:10:00,159
okay i'm doing bad very bad things are

1872
01:10:04,229 --> 01:10:00,840
you

1873
01:10:04,709 --> 01:10:04,239
uh recruit people to do bad things of

1874
01:10:07,830 --> 01:10:04,719
course

1875
01:10:08,790 --> 01:10:07,840
does not work like that we say oh we are

1876
01:10:11,430 --> 01:10:08,800
renewing

1877
01:10:13,270 --> 01:10:11,440
the world we are changing for example

1878
01:10:16,470 --> 01:10:13,280
the

1879
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:16,480
maoist in china with this crucial

1880
01:10:20,709 --> 01:10:18,480
revolution the idea was like oh

1881
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:20,719
we are renewing everything because the

1882
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:22,320
old people were bad

1883
01:10:25,590 --> 01:10:24,800
like let's do this and then let's kill

1884
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:25,600
millions

1885
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:28,400
so like the nazism and like the

1886
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:30,000
religious wars and

1887
01:10:33,669 --> 01:10:31,600
things like that so i think we need to

1888
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:33,679
be very careful

1889
01:10:40,630 --> 01:10:37,199
about the self-deception

1890
01:10:44,470 --> 01:10:40,640
about the rationalizing our

1891
01:10:46,630 --> 01:10:44,480
evil aspect of ourselves

1892
01:10:47,669 --> 01:10:46,640
so uh so we need to be very careful

1893
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:47,679
about that

1894
01:10:51,669 --> 01:10:50,560
very careful about the means that we use

1895
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:51,679
to some end

1896
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,920
i think this is essential also to keep

1897
01:10:59,350 --> 01:10:55,679
this in mind

1898
01:11:02,630 --> 01:10:59,360
and also i think that a good cultivation

1899
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,640
of a healthy spiritual life that try

1900
01:11:08,149 --> 01:11:04,400
really to want to use

1901
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:08,159
uh good spiritual reading meditation

1902
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:11,520
prayer contact with diverse people to be

1903
01:11:14,390 --> 01:11:12,239
open

1904
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:14,400
to criticism to talk to other people

1905
01:11:19,910 --> 01:11:16,320
different perspectives

1906
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:19,920
and genuinely search for the truth and

1907
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:21,199
for the

1908
01:11:27,990 --> 01:11:26,400
i i understand your hesitancy because

1909
01:11:30,070 --> 01:11:28,000
when we really want to talk about our

1910
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:30,080
our own personal spirituality

1911
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:32,640
it's difficult and you are playing such

1912
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:34,560
an important role in trying to keep your

1913
01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:35,199
feet

1914
01:11:41,910 --> 01:11:39,440
on on on solid ground on both counts and

1915
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:41,920
i so respect that and we so need that

1916
01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:43,600
and you're so brilliant at the way that

1917
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:44,719
you do it

1918
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:48,800
to whatever extent you feel you can

1919
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:51,840
explain to us how you understand your

1920
01:11:57,189 --> 01:11:54,080
personal spirituality because

1921
01:11:58,950 --> 01:11:57,199
what you just hinted at is essentially

1922
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:58,960
where i wind up at the end of the day

1923
01:12:02,149 --> 01:12:00,560
which is that the secret of the ascent

1924
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:02,159
is to always look up

1925
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:04,880
and the light is really infinitely more

1926
01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:06,080
powerful than the dark

1927
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,679
and it's really not that hard to even

1928
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,600
distinguish between the true i mean we

1929
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:11,040
kind of have it

1930
01:12:14,790 --> 01:12:13,199
wired into us you know what's the right

1931
01:12:16,149 --> 01:12:14,800
thing and even if we can't choose it all

1932
01:12:18,229 --> 01:12:16,159
the time it's

1933
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:18,239
it's a choice that we that we can make

1934
01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:20,000
and we can kind of see where that leads

1935
01:12:23,510 --> 01:12:20,320
it's

1936
01:12:26,149 --> 01:12:23,520
just not that complicated but

1937
01:12:27,669 --> 01:12:26,159
i just share that because i i don't want

1938
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:27,679
to just grill you all the time and not

1939
01:12:30,310 --> 01:12:29,280
say anything so to whatever extent you

1940
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:30,320
feel

1941
01:12:36,229 --> 01:12:33,120
you can share your personal

1942
01:12:39,270 --> 01:12:36,239
understanding of uh spirituality

1943
01:12:42,870 --> 01:12:39,280
as i told you previously i grew up in a

1944
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:42,880
spiritist and catholic background

1945
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:46,640
and i've become more and more interested

1946
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:50,159
in perennial philosophy in in

1947
01:12:54,870 --> 01:12:53,280
seeing how different spiritual

1948
01:12:58,310 --> 01:12:54,880
traditions

1949
01:13:01,910 --> 01:12:58,320
throughout history are different

1950
01:13:05,189 --> 01:13:01,920
angles to understand the transcendent

1951
01:13:05,830 --> 01:13:05,199
the spirituality usually each different

1952
01:13:09,550 --> 01:13:05,840
tradition

1953
01:13:11,110 --> 01:13:09,560
emphasized more one aspect of

1954
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:11,120
spirituality

1955
01:13:17,750 --> 01:13:14,719
but we we can learn a lot

1956
01:13:19,430 --> 01:13:17,760
from all these perspectives so my my

1957
01:13:27,830 --> 01:13:19,440
personal

1958
01:13:31,750 --> 01:13:27,840
is that yeah we are spiritual beings

1959
01:13:35,110 --> 01:13:31,760
that we are in a journey that is

1960
01:13:39,030 --> 01:13:35,120
something beyond uh matter and we are

1961
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:39,040
in in a journey towards towards

1962
01:13:45,669 --> 01:13:42,239
god or whatever the name we we call this

1963
01:13:49,590 --> 01:13:45,679
and there is kind of a harmony and

1964
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:49,600
the universe that is sustained by this

1965
01:13:54,870 --> 01:13:52,640
higher being and

1966
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:54,880
and the different religious traditions

1967
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:55,920
are

1968
01:14:03,910 --> 01:14:00,400
different angles that people can

1969
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:03,920
see aspects of this ultimate

1970
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:07,600
reality and these religions not are only

1971
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:11,440
different angles but also molded by the

1972
01:14:16,470 --> 01:14:14,400
capacities and culture and people from

1973
01:14:19,510 --> 01:14:16,480
these different perspectives

1974
01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:19,520
and i truly believe that we are

1975
01:14:23,270 --> 01:14:22,480
i i don't see any distinction between

1976
01:14:25,510 --> 01:14:23,280
any people

1977
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:25,520
from anywhere i think we are in the same

1978
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:28,159
journey we need to help each other

1979
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:31,600
in going to our

1980
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:35,360
higher to what distinction to be

1981
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:38,480
i think that's the the main idea and i

1982
01:14:43,750 --> 01:14:40,640
think as i said previously i think the

1983
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:43,760
art spirituality and science are

1984
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:47,360
two key ways to grasp

1985
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:50,080
this reality and i'm very interested

1986
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:51,280
nowadays for example

1987
01:14:54,709 --> 01:14:53,760
understanding spiritual motivations in

1988
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:54,719
art

1989
01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:57,520
and also there is a strong connection

1990
01:15:02,229 --> 01:14:58,320
also

1991
01:15:03,910 --> 01:15:02,239
in major artists since mozart beethoven

1992
01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:03,920
so i think that is a huge

1993
01:15:08,709 --> 01:15:06,400
interconnection between these

1994
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:08,719
different aspects of human life and the

1995
01:15:13,110 --> 01:15:10,080
connection with the

1996
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:13,120
ultimate reality i think that's

1997
01:15:16,149 --> 01:15:14,159
wonderful and uh

1998
01:15:17,830 --> 01:15:16,159
i appreciate that and you've certainly

1999
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:17,840
given us

2000
01:15:24,470 --> 01:15:20,880
such a more encouraging

2001
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:24,480
broader view of how we might imagine our

2002
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:25,520
own spiritual

2003
01:15:28,870 --> 01:15:27,520
journey and it's just terrific and it's

2004
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:28,880
so appreciated

2005
01:15:32,229 --> 01:15:31,120
so in a little bit of time we have left

2006
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:32,239
dr amita what

2007
01:15:37,270 --> 01:15:35,520
are you working on now what has caught

2008
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:37,280
you talked a little bit about the topics

2009
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:38,320
that you're interested

2010
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:40,560
in how do people follow what you're

2011
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:41,679
doing and

2012
01:15:48,470 --> 01:15:45,360
keep up with your work well uh currently

2013
01:15:51,910 --> 01:15:48,480
we are performing some studies

2014
01:15:53,830 --> 01:15:51,920
in spiritual experiences specifically we

2015
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:53,840
are performing two national surveys

2016
01:15:57,110 --> 01:15:56,320
one in people who claim previous life

2017
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,120
and another

2018
01:16:01,030 --> 01:15:59,520
in people who have near death experience

2019
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:01,040
here in brazil

2020
01:16:04,950 --> 01:16:03,840
so we are collecting reports from these

2021
01:16:06,550 --> 01:16:04,960
people

2022
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,560
these are two studies we are also

2023
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:08,640
performing i study nowadays with

2024
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:11,040
mediums who claim to receive messages

2025
01:16:14,149 --> 01:16:12,960
from these people we are investigating

2026
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,159
the accuracy

2027
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:16,800
of the information that they produce we

2028
01:16:19,350 --> 01:16:18,400
are also working with end-of-life

2029
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:19,360
experience

2030
01:16:25,510 --> 01:16:23,360
patients in hospices in

2031
01:16:26,870 --> 01:16:25,520
palliative care units and we are

2032
01:16:30,149 --> 01:16:26,880
investigating their

2033
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:30,159
spiritual experiences we are also

2034
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:32,080
investigating more in a historical

2035
01:16:36,470 --> 01:16:33,360
perspective

2036
01:16:39,590 --> 01:16:36,480
how the spr the societal cycle research

2037
01:16:42,149 --> 01:16:39,600
the major minds in the pre the first

2038
01:16:44,870 --> 01:16:42,159
decades of spr how they deal

2039
01:16:45,669 --> 01:16:44,880
with survival research specifically

2040
01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:45,679
regarding

2041
01:16:50,790 --> 01:16:48,800
theory a methodological challenges end

2042
01:16:52,470 --> 01:16:50,800
of a 19th century beginning a 20th

2043
01:16:53,830 --> 01:16:52,480
century kind of time frame yeah before

2044
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:53,840
that until 1920.

2045
01:17:00,630 --> 01:16:57,440
yeah and also we have a phd student

2046
01:17:01,350 --> 01:17:00,640
who is investigating also philosophers

2047
01:17:04,390 --> 01:17:01,360
from

2048
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:04,400
20th century and how they

2049
01:17:09,270 --> 01:17:07,199
did discuss uh the possibility of

2050
01:17:10,390 --> 01:17:09,280
empirical evidence for survival of

2051
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:10,400
consciousness

2052
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:14,159
and which kind of evidence would it be

2053
01:17:18,709 --> 01:17:17,040
so these are some sorts of investigation

2054
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:18,719
that we are performing

2055
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:20,560
and people who are interested in being

2056
01:17:23,510 --> 01:17:22,560
in touch with us we have a youtube

2057
01:17:26,630 --> 01:17:23,520
channel

2058
01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:26,640
tv new piece new piece is the name of

2059
01:17:31,270 --> 01:17:28,320
our research group it's a bilingual

2060
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:31,280
bilingual channel uh portuguese and

2061
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:32,320
english

2062
01:17:39,030 --> 01:17:36,080
so tv loops n-u-p-e-s if you search

2063
01:17:40,390 --> 01:17:39,040
it you will find hundreds of videos from

2064
01:17:43,510 --> 01:17:40,400
different perspectives

2065
01:17:46,630 --> 01:17:43,520
on different authors around the globe

2066
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:46,640
so we have also our social media

2067
01:17:54,630 --> 01:17:51,199
in what's in instagram and facebook

2068
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:54,640
and this august we are publishing

2069
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:57,520
a book at oxford university press that

2070
01:18:02,229 --> 01:17:58,320
is

2071
01:18:04,229 --> 01:18:02,239
because we have more than 30

2072
01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:04,239
leading authors from eight different

2073
01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:06,400
countries discussing the

2074
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:09,040
practical implications of spiritual to

2075
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:10,400
mental health

2076
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:12,719
it can be found at amazon at their

2077
01:18:16,070 --> 01:18:13,760
webpage that you

2078
01:18:18,070 --> 01:18:16,080
showed previously can you can you give

2079
01:18:20,149 --> 01:18:18,080
people the the title of that book

2080
01:18:21,430 --> 01:18:20,159
spirituality and mental health across

2081
01:18:23,189 --> 01:18:21,440
cultures

2082
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:23,199
we are very very proud of this book

2083
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:24,480
because it's it

2084
01:18:29,830 --> 01:18:28,080
has the top altars in the world from

2085
01:18:30,950 --> 01:18:29,840
different perspectives and spirituality

2086
01:18:33,189 --> 01:18:30,960
and mental health

2087
01:18:35,030 --> 01:18:33,199
so i think it's a very very uh good

2088
01:18:37,750 --> 01:18:35,040
introduction and summary

2089
01:18:39,270 --> 01:18:37,760
to the practical aspects and there is

2090
01:18:41,510 --> 01:18:39,280
also this other book from

2091
01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:41,520
springer exploring the frontiers of

2092
01:18:45,110 --> 01:18:43,199
mighty brain relationship

2093
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:45,120
that we published a few years ago that

2094
01:18:49,189 --> 01:18:46,960
discusses more the mind brain

2095
01:18:50,310 --> 01:18:49,199
issue the spiritual experiences and

2096
01:18:51,990 --> 01:18:50,320
these uh

2097
01:18:54,229 --> 01:18:52,000
questioning aspects regarding

2098
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:54,239
materialism i think this is also

2099
01:18:59,750 --> 01:18:57,520
another possibility i have to ask this

2100
01:19:01,990 --> 01:18:59,760
because people are going to ask me

2101
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:02,000
this book is an oxford university press

2102
01:19:05,830 --> 01:19:03,600
it's going to come out at 70

2103
01:19:06,709 --> 01:19:05,840
in the u.s a lot of people aren't going

2104
01:19:09,270 --> 01:19:06,719
to

2105
01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:09,280
fork over that money or sometimes they

2106
01:19:15,189 --> 01:19:12,080
come out with a kindle version later

2107
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:15,199
or a version that's more more affordable

2108
01:19:21,350 --> 01:19:18,320
is that a possibility no there will be

2109
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:21,360
a kindle version a paperback

2110
01:19:26,390 --> 01:19:24,480
and also we asked them that

2111
01:19:27,750 --> 01:19:26,400
some parts of the book will be opening

2112
01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:27,760
access will be

2113
01:19:33,669 --> 01:19:30,880
open access for for some months

2114
01:19:35,590 --> 01:19:33,679
so this is good news and this book in

2115
01:19:37,910 --> 01:19:35,600
the middle this blue one exploring

2116
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:37,920
frontiers of mighty brain relationship

2117
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:41,120
is a one that tacos tackles more

2118
01:19:46,550 --> 01:19:44,080
on the mighty brain issue in no

2119
01:19:49,189 --> 01:19:46,560
materialist perspective in the in-depth

2120
01:19:49,990 --> 01:19:49,199
analysis of different spiritual

2121
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:50,000
experience it

2122
01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:52,880
has chapters from andrew newberg mario

2123
01:19:56,790 --> 01:19:53,920
bohegar

2124
01:19:57,910 --> 01:19:56,800
bruce gray so so many of the key authors

2125
01:20:01,510 --> 01:19:57,920
in the field

2126
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:01,520
so i think it's a it's a good overview

2127
01:20:05,669 --> 01:20:02,480
also of

2128
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:05,679
this this field and

2129
01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:08,400
also another aspect another new good

2130
01:20:11,510 --> 01:20:09,040
news

2131
01:20:13,910 --> 01:20:11,520
is that this year our research group

2132
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:13,920
here in brazil we are celebrating 15

2133
01:20:17,189 --> 01:20:14,480
years

2134
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:17,199
of our research group nucleus at federal

2135
01:20:22,149 --> 01:20:18,960
university officials de fara

2136
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:22,159
and on september 11th we will have an

2137
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:24,159
online meeting bilingual portuguese and

2138
01:20:28,709 --> 01:20:25,679
english also

2139
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:28,719
discussing the present and future

2140
01:20:32,310 --> 01:20:31,679
of science and spirituality we will have

2141
01:20:34,629 --> 01:20:32,320
also

2142
01:20:35,750 --> 01:20:34,639
some of the best authors in the field we

2143
01:20:38,950 --> 01:20:35,760
will have

2144
01:20:41,350 --> 01:20:38,960
her the konig and park can parliament in

2145
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:41,360
history in in psychology and medicine

2146
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:42,480
will have

2147
01:20:46,790 --> 01:20:44,880
ezio cardinal and robert cloninger

2148
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:46,800
discussing consciousness

2149
01:20:50,709 --> 01:20:48,960
how spiritual experience can help us to

2150
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:50,719
understand consciousness

2151
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:54,719
we also have ronald numbers one of the

2152
01:20:58,629 --> 01:20:57,520
best historians of science nowadays

2153
01:21:01,270 --> 01:20:58,639
who published that the harvard

2154
01:21:01,590 --> 01:21:01,280
university press book galileo goes to jv

2155
01:21:04,149 --> 01:21:01,600
and

2156
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:04,159
other myths in religion science very

2157
01:21:07,270 --> 01:21:05,199
very

2158
01:21:08,629 --> 01:21:07,280
uh interesting altar on this and also

2159
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:08,639
you have andrew

2160
01:21:15,430 --> 01:21:11,920
vincent who is catholic priest

2161
01:21:18,149 --> 01:21:15,440
physicist and director of research

2162
01:21:20,790 --> 01:21:18,159
of the center for religion spirituality

2163
01:21:22,790 --> 01:21:20,800
for oxford university press so we have

2164
01:21:24,070 --> 01:21:22,800
very different authors from different

2165
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:24,080
perspectives

2166
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:27,199
taking a participating of this online

2167
01:21:30,550 --> 01:21:30,239
symposium in september 11th so you will

2168
01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:30,560
find

2169
01:21:37,189 --> 01:21:33,600
more information about this also in my

2170
01:21:40,310 --> 01:21:37,199
social media in website or

2171
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:40,320
other aspects thank you very much thank

2172
01:21:44,550 --> 01:21:40,800
you

2173
01:21:48,149 --> 01:21:44,560
sarcast again has been the quite amazing

2174
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:48,159
dr alexander morera almira and uh

2175
01:21:54,790 --> 01:21:51,600
please get out and support this research

2176
01:21:57,910 --> 01:21:54,800
you can see how important this

2177
01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:57,920
is this is a path forward you know a lot

2178
01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:58,719
of times

2179
01:22:02,149 --> 01:22:00,960
we talk about some of the work that's

2180
01:22:04,709 --> 01:22:02,159
being done

2181
01:22:07,110 --> 01:22:04,719
and it's hard to really see how it could

2182
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:07,120
change things how there really might be

2183
01:22:11,669 --> 01:22:08,560
a path forward

2184
01:22:14,950 --> 01:22:11,679
and i have to say this guy

2185
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:14,960
has not only painted the path forward

2186
01:22:19,350 --> 01:22:17,520
but he's grabbed the sword hopped on his

2187
01:22:20,070 --> 01:22:19,360
horse and he's leading the charge

2188
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:20,080
forward

2189
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:22,000
he's a lightbringer and that's that's

2190
01:22:24,629 --> 01:22:24,080
wonderful and he's obviously a man of

2191
01:22:26,709 --> 01:22:24,639
science

2192
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:26,719
and a learned man of reason it's been

2193
01:22:29,750 --> 01:22:27,920
absolutely terrific

2194
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:29,760
connecting with you and i appreciate so

2195
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:31,440
much the time

2196
01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:34,880
alex thank you very much i'm

2197
01:22:38,070 --> 01:22:36,880
i thank you very much for so kind words

2198
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:38,080
that you you have

2199
01:22:43,990 --> 01:22:41,120
said about our work and really i

2200
01:22:45,189 --> 01:22:44,000
truly appreciate your work at skeptical

2201
01:22:48,629 --> 01:22:45,199
for many years i

2202
01:22:50,629 --> 01:22:48,639
follow up your your work and i

2203
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:50,639
congratulate you and i think exactly

2204
01:22:56,070 --> 01:22:54,560
works like you are an essential aspect

2205
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:56,080
from that strategy that i said

2206
01:22:58,950 --> 01:22:57,840
previously about disseminating the

2207
01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:58,960
analogy

2208
01:23:02,390 --> 01:23:01,120
this deconstructing these misguided

2209
01:23:05,110 --> 01:23:02,400
assumptions and

2210
01:23:07,910 --> 01:23:05,120
spread the word about the good new

2211
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:07,920
research congratulations

2212
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:10,560
thanks again to dr alexander moreira el

2213
01:23:14,790 --> 01:23:13,120
maida for joining me today on skeptico

2214
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:14,800
the one question i t up from this

2215
01:23:19,030 --> 01:23:16,560
interview is

2216
01:23:20,149 --> 01:23:19,040
is this fight winnable we're in the

2217
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:20,159
middle of some very

2218
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:22,320
interesting times when it comes to world

2219
01:23:26,390 --> 01:23:23,199
health

2220
01:23:26,870 --> 01:23:26,400
is this really a path forward or are

2221
01:23:28,310 --> 01:23:26,880
there

2222
01:23:30,709 --> 01:23:28,320
other forces in play that would make

2223
01:23:32,709 --> 01:23:30,719
such advances impossible

2224
01:23:34,950 --> 01:23:32,719
love to hear your thoughts come out over

2225
01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:34,960
the skeptical forum or drop me an email

2226
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:36,239
find me any way you can

2227
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:39,120
love to hear from you lots more to come

2228
01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:40,480
until next time